"Illegal Immigration" is paranoia-speak for "Mexican-hating"

[kallipolis]

Johan,

The matter is not one of how the illegal immigrant thinks when choosing to emigrate into the United States. It is the response of the American people over the centuries to the arrival of waves upon waves of immigrants from all over the world, that encourages the illegal immigrant to continue imitating the example created by the Pilgrim Fathers. No permission to land at Plymouth Rock. No green cards issued by the indigenous American peoples.

Why enforce laws now, that were left unenforced for decades? The jobs are available. Ask at your local hotel, or laundry, or restaurant, or domestic service agency etc.

There will always be a downside to illegal immigration but as we are reminded so often by the political elite, "it is the economy that matters, stupid." Nothing personal, Johan.

 

[kallipolis]

Johan,

I am not an anarchist. I support law and order. I am attempting to persuade people that the issue under discussion is not just a matter of law breaking by illegal immigrants. To my mind the issue resides in the economy. Where there is demand for low paid labour we may expect that magnet to attract illegal immigrants, rather than local legally registered workers. The market place will always satisfy the demand for any product, that is in demand.

In a free enterprise economy there is no easy solution to combating the ongoing waves of immigration that have contributed so much benefit to the United States economy, over the centuries.

 

[Kulindahr]

Johan,

There will always be a downside to illegal immigration but as we are reminded so often by the political elite, "it is the economy that matters, stupid." Nothing personal, Johan.

That's a sad commentary on America: it used to be freedom that matters; now we put our comfort, and security, above freedom.
To most of the people who are opposed to illegal immigration, comfort is really what it's about: they don't like all those people speaking a strange language, don't like hearing their strange music, and in a distant third, don't like the way they look. I hear, "All 'those people' are fat; it's disgusting", or even, "Will my daughter be safe around them?"
For those of us who just want the law enforced, those are ridiculous. I'd like to see the laws changed, as I said here frequently; but until they are, illegal immigrants are just invaders, and should be treated as such.

 

[Kulindahr]

Kall, if you believe our laws are unjust, I respect that opinion (but don't agree).
Don't just break the law, change it.

There's a long-standing American tradition of breaking unjust laws, from the Boston Tea Party to Henry David Thoreau. Changing laws can be helped along that way, but changing laws can also go against the interests of the legislators.
It's too bad we don't have a Ghandi figure to lead civil disobedience to a large number of laws.

 

[kallipolis]

Kulindahr,

Remove the incentive for illegal immigration, and the matter is resolved rather quickly.

Constructing hundreds of miles of fenceing and employing large numbers of paid and voluntary staff to man the southern frontier, will not eliminate illegal immigration from Mexico.

The matter is about enforcing the laws of the land by ensuring that American employers do not employ illegal immigrants. This can be achieved through imposing penalties upon those employers of illegal immigrants, that are so onerous that no American employer will employ an illegal immigrant.

So doing guarantees that miles of fences and thousands of frontier patrol staff become redundant, and seek employment in those places which would normally employ illegal immigrants.

 

[Nishin]

Everyone but you, you mean -- your words were a fabricated accusation, based on nothing I've said.

Barely... for the second time, this is what you said :

I don't care who comes across the border illegally, I only owe them one thing: a warning to turn back, and if they don't, a bullet between the eyes.

Words you then tried to justify by mentioning the US Constitution...
So I am asking you to quote where in the US Constitution is it advocated to murder unarmed and unthreatening people, whoever they are... otherwise your words seem revealing of ulterior motives.

Um, for the second one, I'd have to refer you to the Constitution. Or are you saying that the United States does not own its own territory?

You were not talking about the United States... you were talking about YOURSELF and about how YOU "only owe them a warning and a bullet between the eyes".
The United States is an entity run by a government and I think it has a defense department big enough to repel any invasion if deemed necessary.
What I'm asking you is to produce documentation that asserts, as a lambda citizen, your ownership of the country's soil and that legitimizes your shooting around of immigrants in the name of the Constitution and claimed security matters.

 

[SantaCBear]

Kulindahr,

Remove the incentive for illegal immigration, and the matter is resolved rather quickly.

Constructing hundreds of miles of fenceing and employing large numbers of paid and voluntary staff to man the southern frontier, will not eliminate illegal immigration from Mexico.

The matter is about enforcing the laws of the land by ensuring that American employers do not employ illegal immigrants. This can be achieved through imposing penalties upon those employers of illegal immigrants, that are so onerous that no American employer will employ an illegal immigrant.

So doing guarantees that miles of fences and thousands of frontier patrol staff become redundant, and seek employment in those places which would normally employ illegal immigrants.

Why not do both... a good faith effort to enforce the law on employers and illegals

also, many would find what you suggest as 'racist' if implemented.

 

[kallipolis]

Racist in the sense that it implies that my suggestion targets Mexicans only, or because I am recommending that the employer of illegal immigrants should be treated with the same measure as the Mexican illegal?

That would be tantamount to me being accused of being anti-American, by recommending that the United States authorities implement their own clearly legislated laws.

 

[SantaCBear]

"Racist in the sense that it implies that my suggestion targets Mexicans only"

wouldnt matter to the pro-illegal immigration advocates - still would be condemned as racist.

Just read the threads here...

USA already have/has ( plural debate ) clearly legislated laws against illegals but went wanting to enforced them the person is labeled as a racist by many.

 

[kallipolis]

I would characterise the matter differently from your understanding. It is my opinion that those posters who have indicated that racism is a factor in this debate are sufficiently sensitive to discern the bias that masquerades as an impartial assessment of this human tragedy

When we focus on the illegal Mexican immigrant and ignore the culpability of the American employer of such illegal labour, we are choosing to take sides and imply that there is only one guilty party.

I am aware from reading your postings, that your position has been just and fair.

 

[Kurn]

We should have separate legislation for "neighbor countries."
We should make it a low-hassle affair for law-abiding Canadians and Mexicans.
They should be able to walk into San Ysidro or Nogales or McAllen or Detroit or St Alban's, Vermont, and pick up a low-cost lookin'-for-work visa. At the same time they can review relevant labor opportunities.
We get marginal labor needs met---there are many, many.
They get work and work experience and they can return home when they want to, no hassle; and they'll be bringing not only work skills to their home barrios but ideas about life and politics as it might or might not be.

But the crude, un-American, anti-Mexican sentiments, whether direct or piggy-backed, expressed here are of course nothing I would want either Canadians or Mexicans to witness.
.
.
.
Legality and legalistic violence is for those that surrender to personal impotence. Not very American.
We all have come out of a violent womb. Keep coming out or life isn't worth living.

 

[JackFTwist]

1. curiously, the original immigration laws in the US were very racist - designed to keep out eastern and southern europeans (catholics) and asians - meant to limit most immigration to "good" types like northern european nordic types - immigration laws were and are racist

2. we live in an economy that is essentially supply and demand - jobs are here, lowpaying jobs that we want done but don;t want to do - so in pure market theory, the labor supply shows up - it would throw our economy into utter chaos and catastrophe if all undocumnented/illegal aliens were removed from our economy

3. I just love how "law abiding" some people get - when it suits their purposes

4. we have seen so many posts that remind us how few Christians post at JUB, and we never seem to have any acknowledged followers of Judaism - but any Jew or Christian who claims to hold the Scriptures as authoritative is bound by God to welcome all foreigners, aliens, etc - a wandering Aramean was my ancestor - the story of the people of God is the story of "illegals" and God commands us especially to welcome the aline and the foreigner

5. hating on "aliens" is such wonderful bonding for the straights and gays - must be nice to unite with a common hate!

6. and yes, profess our love for all people while we hate on the aliens - just like all the KKKers who tell us that some of their best friends are black but after all we have to enforce the law...

7. for people who have been victimized by injustice and repressive laws, gays sure make such a well dressed and stylish group of klan-ites, color coordinated hoods and matching accessories...

8. all your borders and all your national identities are pure human creation meant to divide - just like the use of orientation, it is an immoral way to divide people - no one has any rights other than human rights and all people are entitled to live and work to support their selves and their families

9. hold those pinkies high over your lattes while you decry illegal lovers like me - and think about that in your sleep tonight

 

[Kulindahr]

Barely... for the second time, this is what you said :


Words you then tried to justify by mentioning the US Constitution...
So I am asking you to quote where in the US Constitution is it advocated to murder unarmed and unthreatening people, whoever they are... otherwise your words seem revealing of ulterior motives.



You were not talking about the United States... you were talking about YOURSELF and about how YOU "only owe them a warning and a bullet between the eyes".
The United States is an entity run by a government and I think it has a defense department big enough to repel any invasion if deemed necessary.
What I'm asking you is to produce documentation that asserts, as a lambda citizen, your ownership of the country's soil and that legitimizes your shooting around of immigrants in the name of the Constitution and claimed security matters.

Nishin, it seems you've been taking lessons from Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly.
Until you give up putting words in my mouth, there's no point in talking to you; you're building your own reality, which has nothing to do with what I've talked about.

As to what I actually said: others were maintaining that I somehow owed these invaders care and concern. To go the other direction, which is far more the truth, I illustrated a more sensible reality: we don't welcome invaders and hand over our wealth, we repel them.

 

[Kulindahr]

Why not do both... a good faith effort to enforce the law on employers and illegals

also, many would find what you suggest as 'racist' if implemented.

Precisely!

We should get control of our border regardless, even as we penalize (stiffly) those who are aiding and abetting this invasion.

 

[Backlum-Chaam]

we don't welcome invaders and hand over our wealth, we repel them.

US citizens aren't "handing over" their wealth. They are exchanging it for labor.

 

[SantaCBear]

^ not always... SoCal's Emergency Rooms are closing in a large part for providing 'free' (nothing is free) medical services to illegals.

 

[RandomAccess]

Why not do both... a good faith effort to enforce the law on employers and illegals

also, many would find what you suggest as 'racist' if implemented.

Also, how many illegals would we have to hire to construct that gweat-big wall?

 

[SantaCBear]

^ have guest-workers build the wall - that would be cool

 

[RandomAccess]

Nishin, it seems you've been taking lessons from Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly.
Until you give up putting words in my mouth, there's no point in talking to you; you're building your own reality, which has nothing to do with what I've talked about.

As to what I actually said: others were maintaining that I somehow owed these invaders care and concern. To go the other direction, which is far more the truth, I illustrated a more sensible reality: we don't welcome invaders and hand over our wealth, we repel them.

How the hell did he put words in your mouth, Kuli? He QUOTED you! Now man-up here and own it, and give him an answer while you're at it!

 

[Kulindahr]

US citizens aren't "handing over" their wealth. They are exchanging it for labor.

Emergency rooms get a lot of traffic from illegal aliens; so do county health clinics.
But they don't pay for them, citizens do -- and that's handing over wealth.
They also drive on our roads, which are supported by taxes, and not just gas tax and car registration and driver's licenses; they don't pay those taxes, citizens do -- and that's handing over wealth.
They use our parks, and schools, and recreation areas, all without paying the taxes to support those -- and that also is handing over wealth.

You might call it extortion; at the least it's theft of public services, and they all ought to be arrested for that.