Is America the hope of the world?

[peeonme]

T

But my point was to emphasize that all those riches have rather little to do with all the traditional tale of "hard work and talent" that is still sold to the masses and, most importantly, that all the mass market, with the mass rallies (sports, music...), mass .

One thing is certain, if one sits around and doesn't try, they will have nothing.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

One thing is certain, if one sits around and doesn't try, they will have nothing.

As opposed to working all your life and still having nothing. Kinda hard for me personally to determine who's the bigger sucker

 

[Benvolio]

Why, because I basically said that America's economy left to itself, without any sort of European or Asian influence, is only undercrafted, overpriced strass for the undiscerning clueless, and that its politics, left to the good genuine Americans, is Trumpism?

No, the US is still the most innovative economy in the world. Cell phones for instance, new drugs and medical devices, the internet and the internet companies. We influence Europe and Asia more than they influence us.

 

[peeonme]

]As opposed to working all your life and still having nothing.[/B] Kinda hard for me personally to determine who's the bigger sucker

I have never been hungry, homeless, naked or poor.
I have had some lean times, but I have lived better than most people that have ever been born. Be it luck, skin color or just perseverance I have lived a good life.

But, let me ask, what do you mean by having "nothing"? If you live in a warm place and have food and clothing you have something,
don't you?

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

But, let me ask, what do you mean by having "nothing"? If you live in a warm place and have food and clothing you have something,
don't you?

Surely people living in the US of A can (and should) aspire to more than having shelter and food? The bare minimum isn't really a fulfilling life. And before you go there, wanting more =/= being unappreciative of what you have.

On further thought, working just be able to keep a roof over your head and some beans on the stove sounds like a pretty miserable or at least unfulfilling existence.

 

[peeonme]

Surely people living in the US of A can (and should) aspire to more than having shelter and food? The bare minimum isn't really a fulfilling life. And before you go there, wanting more =/= being unappreciative of what you have.

On further thought, working just be able to keep a roof over your head and some beans on the stove sounds like a pretty miserable or at least unfulfilling existence.

Anything beyond the basics is a plus. Being healthy enough to work is great, owning your own car, a home, ordering a pizza on occasion, having a tv, all of these things we take for granted.

I do not spend or waste my time obsessing about the 1%, most wealthy people I have ever known have been miserable.

 

[belamyi]

One thing is certain, if one sits around and doesn't try, they will have nothing.

Again, that is not the point: those who want to get rich do not mind what they do to achieve it, or whether they actually have to do anything at all, and their aspiration is more the typical "lyfestyle and status of the rich" than the business somehow "entitling" you to it, while in the case of those who get rich by being a hard-working geek, the important thing is the specific work you do, not whether it would eventually make you very wealthy.

 

[Kulindahr]

One thing is certain, if one sits around and doesn't try, they will have nothing.

Unfortunately, propertarians will argue that the converse is also true, when it demonstrably isn't.

 

[Kulindahr]

Surely people living in the US of A can (and should) aspire to more than having shelter and food? The bare minimum isn't really a fulfilling life. And before you go there, wanting more =/= being unappreciative of what you have.

On further thought, working just be able to keep a roof over your head and some beans on the stove sounds like a pretty miserable or at least unfulfilling existence.

Especially when we have the technology to do it differently.

And technology is important here: it has been advances in technology that have driven every change in economics throughout history. We only have capitalism because changes in technology made it possible, so we must be aware that changes in technology may also mean its end.

 

[Kulindahr]

Again, that is not the point: those who want to get rich do not mind what they do to achieve it, or whether they actually have to do anything at all, and their aspiration is more the typical "lyfestyle and status of the rich" than the business somehow "entitling" you to it, while in the case of those who get rich by being a hard-working geek, the important thing is the specific work you do, not whether it would eventually make you very wealthy.

And indeed most of those wealthy because of hard work admit that it isn't the money that motivates them (which trashes the argument that lower taxes will mean more innovation) -- something pretty well proven by all the situations in which such people have been heavily taxed but they just kept on working hard.

In fact more than a few would happily be taxed at 70% if they knew the money was going to people who would turn around and spend it on their products. Indeed, the more people who have plenty of money for discretionary spending, the more accurate the system will tell what products are really in demand rather than just what products people are driven to because they can't afford what they'd like.

 

[nycguydowntown]

No, the US is still the most innovative economy in the world. Cell phones for instance, new drugs and medical devices, the internet and the internet companies. We influence Europe and Asia more than they influence us.

don't know what you base this on---NYC hospitals are filled with foreign trained doctors and many innovations come from Europe and Asia---as far as innovative economy if you mean the rich are richer and the poor work 3 jobs to pay bills ---and a $6.00 an hour min wage in 1980 would be nearly $20 an hour today----to keep up with the cost of living---and we know that's not happening here---and our roads bridges and airports are no where near as good as Europe and Asia's----so influence is a two way street for sure.

 

[belamyi]

No, the US is still the most innovative economy in the world. Cell phones for instance, new drugs and medical devices, the internet and the internet companies. We influence Europe and Asia more than they influence us.

You are mistaking a whole economy, with the few tycoons (like the famed unicorns) which make it peak higher in some particular points: apart from some Apple products, and less truly innovative drugs and devices than some like to assume, American economy is more bubblish that you would like to admit now, but you will fe forced to face in just a couple of years.

Apart from that, it is more the sheer SIZE than true INNOVATION which makes the great strength of America: if you study even lightly the history of XXth century engineering and industry, the French, for example, have have been the first to make innovations that have been superseded, sometimes even unabashedly copied, by other countries whose main strength was not so much ingenuity as business savvy.

You speak rather like the Chinese who pretend to be like the peak of human ingenuity for all ages to come just for their famed five fucking inventions: like the Americans, they gobble up economic fields more because of their wild drive than for their inventiveness: and the true force of the Western world, with their capitalism and their democratic systems, lies precisely in that ability to develop and evolve new ways, rather than just grow and supersize like a cancer.

 

[belamyi]

^ add to the last: "or stick to old ways and principles that you feel should never be abandoned, and which have ballasted other nations, and helped more the Western to impose ots ways than its armies and invasions: the moment the West starts getting as inflexible and full of itself like China or Asia in general at the turn of the XVIIIth or the XIXth century, feeling that they are masters because they have to, because they have enjoyed that position for the past centuries, not for the conditions and decisions that have allowed it to remain so, then it will be opening the gates for Asia (from Turkey to Korea) to replace Europe and America as 'master of the game'".

 

[Benvolio]

A measure of innovation is the number of Nobel prize winners. The United States and United Kingdom predominate. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ich-country-has-the-most-Nobel-laureates.html
Note, many winners are born elsewhere but come to US and UK to their best work, and the issue is which country is the most innovative. Aside from that, the changes resulting from US development of electricity, and it’s making the automobile accessible to all dominated the 20th century. I should also mention our development of aircraft, movies, Phonograph, the list goes on and on. The computer credit goes to UK and US. More recently our development of the internet, smart phones and related innovations have dominated.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

A measure of innovation is the number of Nobel prize winners. The United States and United Kingdom predominate. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ich-country-has-the-most-Nobel-laureates.html
Note, many winners are born elsewhere but come to US and UK to their best work, and the issue is which country is the most innovative. Aside from that, the changes resulting from US development of electricity, and it’s making the automobile accessible to all dominated the 20th century. I should also mention our development of aircraft, movies, Phonograph, the list goes on and on. The computer credit goes to UK and US. More recently our development of the internet, smart phones and related innovations have dominated.

With all the racists, misogynists and frauds who have won Nobel prizes I'm [STRIKE]completely[/STRIKE] not even the slightest bit surprised that that would be your measure for a great country. And let us not forget there's more than a country or two that are lagging behind because we raped the land, the people and the resources and left them to wallow in problems we created and refuse to acknowledge let alone fix. You don't get bragging rights in a race where you broke the competition's legs, shot them in the arm and have been slowly poisoning them with arsenic over the past few months.

 

[oakpope]

Innovation index :
http://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2017/article_0006.html
The USA are 4th, which is very good, but not 1st.

Nobel prize counts is not a very good estimation for a country innovation or influence in current years.
Firstly because that counts all Nobel since its creation, which is irrelevant, a Nobel prize in 1900 doesn't mean the influence or innovation is still going on in 2017.
Secondly, some Nobel prizes are dubious, like the one attributed in medicine for the lobotomy to treat depression.
Thirdly, you should be concerned on the number of foreign students in your top university. They are more and more from Asian countries. And the cost is so high for foreigners, that it probable that these Asian countries finance a part of the education. A larger part will take the knowledge and know how back to their countries now and in the future.

The trend in the US and the UK that project suspicion on science, scientific experiment, critical thinking, systematic disdain for "experts" is also very concerning. Beware those who want you to not think by yourself, it's not for your good and not a boon to innovation.

The USA is the richest country on Earth. It's understandable they are at the peak of science, but beware complacency. Also the American way of thinking of some "I'm not concerned by others if I have what I want in life" is not a good behavior in science where cooperation is paramount. The number of science projects that were cut recently in the USA is also a problem. They were cut because expensive and in the field of theory science, not immediately practical ones, like the super telescope or the LHC equivalent.

No country by itself should/could be considered the "hope" of the world. But the USA have very significant advantages and possibilities to be among the very greatest. Just remember that Rome thought itself the peak and the never-ending Empire.

 

[oakpope]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/1st-grader-asks-food-blanket-heartbreaking-letter-santa/story?id=51832337

I know it's not fair, it's just a case, but... ?

 

[NotHardUp1]

I seem to remember a tradition of trolling threads around holiday time. Ho ho ho. It's JUB. We should embrace our own "normal" I guess.

Is American the shining city on a hill? Was it ever? Of course, the answer is subjective by definition.

Do we have social issues better or worse than African countries or European? Yes.

Is America more imperialistic than under Teddy Roosevelt, or a champion of multinationalism? Yes.

Do we have a much larger or smaller population than other countries in the Orient or the polar regions? Yes.

Do we champion innovation or stifle creativity in favor of the status quo? Yes.

Is religion a force for charity and good or merely the cynical tool of regressive forces? Yes.

Are we ashamed of our failings as a nation or proud of our heritage? Yes.

Is the economy an icebreaker or just the Titanic? Yes.

Is racism and multiculturalism somehow different here than in other countries, or are we worse off than ever? Yes.

See how that works? To the glee of naysayers, both foreign and domestic, we can be anything and it will still be "true." We can choose to focus on the police state, the poor, the rich, the outsiders, the in-crowd, the stupid, the elite, or whatever, and we're all going to be right in some degree.

And, should the topic be another country less represented on JUB, we could also come up with a similar discussion of its virtues and vices. America is a great nation, and greatly troubled. It has been all my 56 years. It's a bit like owning a big house, or being in a long term relationship: there is a lot to enjoy AND a lot to work on.

It's our country and amusing that foreigners enjoy critiquing it above their own, especially those living abroad from their own country and yet still opining about American more than either the land of their domicile or the land of their birth. That pattern is actually common and discernible here on JUB when looking at who is unhappy with America the most.

I'm from very poor people. My siblings are yet poor to varying degrees. But, none of them, nor any people I see shopping at Aldi or Wal-Mart are living on beans. They just aren't. To be sure, there are some extreme poor, and pockets of them are concentrated for various reasons, but there are also many generous neighbors and such in my land. The story Oakpope posted was in Texas, the butt of many a jab here for the supposed Southern cracker mentality, yet generosity is one of the cultural norms too, and 600 blankets is a wonderful statement. Did it "fix" all that's broken and led to the want and privation? No, but it's a good sign that brotherly love is alive and well.

Peace on Earth, good will to trolls, and all that.

 

[belamyi]

The patron saint of trolls and trolling... according to some people:

look at that nasty green hue...

 

[NotHardUp1]

Nausea is as likely to give a green glow as envy.