Mass shooting at Pulse Nightclub in Orlando Florida: Political Discussion [SPLIT]

[Kulindahr]

Hola Bitches, soooooooooooo...................

Once again we have the same conversation, a few people calling for sane regulation, a few kiddies trying to sound like bad-asses, Kuli in with the apologia - are we done yet?

I just have to say one more time, I have no problem with gun ownership, I have a problem with gun OWNERS!

REGULATE!

(...and yes that's perfectly constitutional, telling your crazy hater ass that you have to wait a week for your instrument of murder does not violate the second amendment... No Kuli it does NOT)

Other places, sanity wins,



http://gawker.com/federal-court-rules-concealed-carry-law-in-california-u-1781746016

Now if only we can get Texas into the Ninth circuit.

There's a touch of sanity there: the Ninth basically said that laws against carrying openly are unconstitutional.

 

[Kulindahr]

... the sane voices who keep pointing to the fact that the majority of Americans want better gun regulations......

Most Americans don't want any more gun control, by about three to two. What they do want is something effective that doesn't burden law-abiding citizens but deals with the bad guys.

But neither Wayne La Pierre nor the gun haters are interested in actions that are actually effective; both are just interested in having sheep -- Wayne so he can fleece them, the haters so they can require them to be ready for slaughter.

 

[Kulindahr]

What happen in Orlando is just more of we have had to endure, with number of mass killings from schools to shopping centers, movie theaters to military bases. The NRA reply if they been armed there would be less deaths.

There would have been fewer deaths if staff had been armed and trained. Though this was not a normal situation; the killer in this case was trained to go up against armed opponents -- that's not common. Florida should seriously tighten the requirements for that security guard license.

And it wouldn't hurt for high profile targets like gay bars, when they're required to be victim-rich environments, to do some of the hardening the Interpol head mentioned; at the very least, the bar and interior doors should be armored and capable of being secured against forcible entry, and emergency exits added.

 

[Kulindahr]

Wow, such an elegant solution. The threat is ended with NO SCREENING, so just stop screening entirely.

[OK, I actually know what you were saying. I'm just having fun with English. The ambiguity of our language strikes again!]

Reminds me of the commercials that proclaim something like "NOTHING works better than RamaLama!" - so, instead of using RamaLama, use *NOTHING* - because it works better!

Screening -- add to my recommendations to gay bars that the entries should have well-hidden metal detectors. Anyone setting one off should be strip-searched by a cute bouncer.

Thanks to my new hips, I'd get to be strip-searched by a cute bouncer every time!

 

[Kulindahr]

I seem to recall hearing that he fired a spray of bullets into a plate glass window and created an opening.

I've read two dozen accounts and all any of them say is that he "entered", which is less than helpful.

I've also been seeing statements that he had gone there before fairly often for up to three years, sometimes getting drunk and unruly enough to be evicted, plus one claim that he was on a gay dating app.

This keeps getting weirder. Do we have a case of self-hate gone medieval?

 

[frankfrank]

I've read two dozen accounts and all any of them say is that he "entered", which is less than helpful.

That's the most I've heard, too - didn't hear about a window being shot out to create an opening.

Do those types of places usually even have windows?

 

[Kabluey]

You don't want to hear sense from an expert?

If we don't want this sort of thing happening, those are the options.

To tell you the truth, I see you less as an expert and more as an obsessive collector who has a blind spot towards anything that might get in the way between you and your hobby.
I believe that your arguments are overly flexible and irrational when it comes to justifying gun accessibility and that your anger when confronted with the potential for your hobby to be taken away is somewhat concerning.
I don't think you're bad, but I don't think you realise how extreme your viewpoint is.

 

[palemale]

Re: Florida Gay Club PULSE has been attacked with injuries, and possible hostage situation.

You said guns are ineffective. If that's so, there's no reason the police should have them.

The killer didn't have a "military assault weapon", he had a modern sporting rifle. The SWAT team, on the other hand, had actual military weapons, body armor, and training.

And SWAT is supposed to be able to charge in -- that's the whole point of having SWAT. It's Special Weapons and Tactics -- and there are tactics for going in against an active shooter. Frak, you can learn those in an advanced NRA course, so why aren't the SWAT people applying training that is available to anyone with the bucks to take the course?

I saw someone call them "Simply Wimps, All the Time", since it seems that what SWAT teams in the U.S. do best is wait and put their own safety above that of the public. If they aren't willing to go in against an active shooter, they should get a different job and stop wasting the taxpayers' money.

I did not say guns are ineffective. I said arming all civilians and expecting them to make a dark theater or nightclub safe from a deranged killer with an assault weapon is ludicrous. Having dozens of people shooting in a dark theater is just madness. Once the bullets start flying, how does anyone distinguish the killer from the defenders in the pitch black.

I live in New York City where every bus and train station, as well as many of our busiest subway stations, have police officers armed with high powered rifles. I'm quite sure they deter potential terrorists or mass killers. However, should a mass killer show up in Grand Central Station, where thousands of people are passing through at all hours of the day and evening, I'd prefer he have a shot gun or hand gun than an assault rifle. The chances of mass casualties diminishes considerably in those circumstances.

 

[palemale]

Re: Florida Gay Club PULSE has been attacked with injuries, and possible hostage situation.

The killer didn't have a "military assault weapon", he had a modern sporting rifle.

Kuli out hunting with his sporting rifle:

 

[Kabluey]

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If someone proclaims themselves an expert, they'll need to qualify that.

To be honest, the only reason the problem of how to address mass shootings is apparently complex, is because every solution except the simplest one has been tried and has failed.

 

[Rolyo85]

And of course the usual ammosexuals are making the usual self-serving deflecting pseudo-arguments to defend their musket ammendment. Because your pathetic "rights" and paranoid "what if" scenarios are more important than lives lost.

Fuck your second amendment and fuck your rights. The biggest shooting spree in the history of this country just occurred, and THEY DID IT TO US! Have some fucking respect.

 

[TX-Beau]

There's a touch of sanity there: the Ninth basically said that laws against carrying openly are unconstitutional.

No they didn't, they said that there is no constitutional protection for concealed carry, and if/when this gets kicked upstairs that will be upheld, because indeed there is no constitutional protection for concealed carry, now let's get the lawsuit started that challenges the Texas law that forces me to let you have guns in my bar.

For all of the gun nuts arguments about constitutionality, they seem to think that their INTERPRETATION of the constitution should be forced on all of us.

You DO NOT have the right to force the rest of us to put up with this, You want a gun, fine, but you CAN'T HAVE IT IN MY STORE!

 

[frankfrank]

Trump will not allow the terrorist immigration issue to die.

Yesterday in New Hampshire, Drumpf SAID that, as President, he would be willing to change immigration laws without approval of Congress.

Republicans have gone absolutely BALLISTIC any time Obama has done anything to tweak immigration in any possible way, or even suggested that Congress should approve something.

But, it's THEIR NOMINEE...I know, for sure, that we will NOT HEAR WORD ONE from Republicans that Donald is threatening to be an imperial president by issuing immigration edicts without Congressional approval.

Wanting to "have it both ways" is utterly the most accurate definition of HYPOCRISY.

 

[BillyT]

Yes, there were armed people in the club, but they were well-identified, so they were early targets.

What's truly tragic is that it took the SWAT team three hours to decide they were ready to go in. So the killer could have had a civil war single-shot bolt action rifle and had time to kill fifty people!

SWAT should show up and get in there. Instead they serve to protect their own safety more than the citizens.

Shame.

When the police arrived they went in and confronted the gunman. When that was done the gunman got into the restroom with hostages. While the police contained the main rooms they started pulling out the injured to get them medical help. That in itself save many more people. Then all the SWAT team had to do is form a plan to get the hostages out of the restroom which they did with saving the lives of those in the restroom. I have not been prouder of our local City Police and Sheriff Deputies that risked their lives to save others.

 

[opinterph]

I'm still wondering how he got that huge thing into a night club.

I seem to recall hearing that he fired a spray of bullets into a plate glass window and created an opening.

I've read two dozen accounts and all any of them say is that he "entered", which is less than helpful.

That's the most I've heard, too - didn't hear about a window being shot out to create an opening.

I have newly searched for information relating to the shooting out of a window for the purpose of gaining entry and found nothing. It does appear possible that the killer initially entered the club as a patron, but then left to go outside after about an hour – perhaps to retrieve his firearms.

Mateen entered the club about 1 a.m. Sunday, an hour before the shooting began. (Orlando Sentinel)

An Orlando police officer was on duty outside the club and moved to confront the gunman … The officer drew the gunman outside on to Orange Avenue, where they exchanged fire. Then the shooter re-entered the club and started firing again. (The Guardian)

Mateen … exchanged gunfire with a police officer outside the club around 2am before he made his way inside and took the remaining club-goers hostage. (Daily Mail)

 

[BillyT]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...d-at-the-orlando-nightclub-shooting.html?_r=0

 

[Kabluey]

It seems he's assessed the level of fire power available to the police officer at the door and made a calculated choice to target and outgun him first.
Given he was not apparently injured in that initial fight, I guess he was wearing some kind of armour.

 

[frankfrank]

^ My computer doesn't "like" that NYT page for some reason. I can't get it to load. What does it say?

 

[Benvolio]

Yesterday in New Hampshire, Drumpf SAID that, as President, he would be willing to change immigration laws without approval of Congress.

Republicans have gone absolutely BALLISTIC any time Obama has done anything to tweak immigration in any possible way, or even suggested that Congress should approve something.

But, it's THEIR NOMINEE...I know, for sure, that we will NOT HEAR WORD ONE from Republicans that Donald is threatening to be an imperial president by issuing immigration edicts without Congressional approval.

Wanting to "have it both ways" is utterly the most accurate definition of HYPOCRISY.

You cannot base a claim of hypocrisy upon your guess what others might do. I did not hear what Trump said or what he means, but i guarantee that many Republican would scream if he increases immigration, legally or illegally.

 

[frankfrank]

^ I'm talking about Trump stopping immigrations of all Muslims, etc. by ROYAL EDICT - NOT INCREASING IMMIGRATION - and you know that's what I meant.

But that kind of imperial edict will be fine, of course.

But let Obama even SUGGEST anything, and look who goes ballistic.