The Original Gay Porn Community - Free Gay Movies and Photos, Gay Porn Site Reviews and Adult Gay Forums

  • Welcome To Just Us Boys - The World's Largest Gay Message Board Community

    In order to comply with recent US Supreme Court rulings regarding adult content, we will be making changes in the future to require that you log into your account to view adult content on the site.
    If you do not have an account, please register.
    REGISTER HERE - 100% FREE / We Will Never Sell Your Info

    To register, turn off your VPN; you can re-enable the VPN after registration. You must maintain an active email address on your account: disposable email addresses cannot be used to register.

My Illegal Amnesty Issue Hypothesis

But where are you going to find the workers to do all those jobs??? Meanwhile, crops rot in the fields, the construction industry crumbles, grass rows up to our asses. . . And then, once you've got those jobs staffed, what are you going to do to fill the jobs THOSE workers vacated?

The solution is too simplistic, my friend. But sure, let's make sweeping changes based on anecdotal evidence without regard to the outcome. Anymore, that's the Republican way.

i pointed out where we could find the workers...do you suppose these jobs have never been done by americans?

the "solution" is just one person's opinion in this case...and this issue is hardly a republican/democratic issue...there are plenty of high profile repubs pushing the amnesty bill, too.

you cannot tell me that the service jobs (flippin burgers for profit) created after all the factory work went overseas will be more appealing to american citizens than construction and road work and whatever is still available out here if those jobs were not given to illegals...crop workers can always be under temp worker visas that are seasonal and regional

and perhaps if our citizens would get out and mow their own grass & do their own housework we wouldn't have an obesity epidemic
 
Meanwhile, crops rot in the fields

on that you are wrong - crops rotting in the field sometimes has horrible effect so the health of the fields so the crops are being plowed under - it is happening now because the number of farm works is way down

it amazes me that something that is so simple is so difficult to understand: this is all supply and demand - there is not American worker that is displaced by immigrants, legal or undocumented, and no one can name one - immigrants of whatever kind are doing the very jobs that Americans won't do - so the supply has filled the demand until now when US hostility has supplanted reason on this side of the border so many immigrant workers have stayed away -

and the very people who should understand that now spout off the most simplistic, jingoistic rhetoric -

but that does have a long history in America, in the past it was called the Know Nothing Party

and that ignorance transcends party labels - what Reagan supported in his administration is anathema to the party he once lead
 
i pointed out where we could find the workers...do you suppose these jobs have never been done by americans?

the "solution" is just one person's opinion in this case...and this issue is hardly a republican/democratic issue...there are plenty of high profile repubs pushing the amnesty bill, too.

you cannot tell me that the service jobs (flippin burgers for profit) created after all the factory work went overseas will be more appealing to american citizens than construction and road work and whatever is still available out here if those jobs were not given to illegals...crop workers can always be under temp worker visas that are seasonal and regional

Those two things have happened very gradually (loss of manufacturing jobs & rise in service jobs). They didn't cause a mass exodus of people to leave a huge implosion inducing vaccum.

My contention is, unumployment is currently at about 5%. There are roughly 12 - 13 million laborers you wish to deport There are approximately 140 - 150 million workers in the US. Even if every one of the unemployed were forced to take the jobs vacated by illegals, that still leaves around 5 or 6 million jobs unfilled. Now, where are you going to find the workers??? They don't exist!
 
on that you are wrong - crops rotting in the field sometimes has horrible effect so the health of the fields so the crops are being plowed under - it is happening now because the number of farm works is way down

it amazes me that something that is so simple is so difficult to understand: this is all supply and demand - there is not American worker that is displaced by immigrants, legal or undocumented, and no one can name one - immigrants of whatever kind are doing the very jobs that Americans won't do - so the supply has filled the demand until now when US hostility has supplanted reason on this side of the border so many immigrant workers have stayed away -

and the very people who should understand that now spout off the most simplistic, jingoistic rhetoric -

but that does have a long history in America, in the past it was called the Know Nothing Party

and that ignorance transcends party labels - what Reagan supported in his administration is anathema to the party he once lead

I'm very confused. Which side of the debate are you taking? You disagree with me, but then you agree with me. I'm lost.
 
the near full employment is a whole lotta crappy low paying jobs RA...if there were ads in the papers for better paying jobs (such as the ones the illegals are taking for far less money) then you would find your workers - the employers are not posting these jobs here RA, because they are filled with illegal workers...again - these jobs were done by americans at one time, were they not? so the idea that there are not enough of us is disingenuous

and the exporting of jobs was not a gradual thing - it has happened overnight in the context of the history of this country - i would suggest you visit some of these factory towns if you do not believe that there was an implosion that happened - the inhabitants might disagree...that is the ones who still live in them and haven't moved on to where there might be jobs
 
the near full employment is a whole lotta crappy low paying jobs RA...if there were ads in the papers for better paying jobs (such as the ones the illegals are taking for far less money) then you would find your workers - the employers are not posting these jobs here RA, because they are filled with illegal workers...again - these jobs were done by americans at one time, were they not? so the idea that there are not enough of us is disingenuous

and the exporting of jobs was not a gradual thing - it has happened overnight in the context of the history of this country - i would suggest you visit some of these factory towns if you do not believe that there was an implosion that happened - the inhabitants might disagree...that is the ones who still live in them and haven't moved on to where there might be jobs

MY POINT REMAINS: There aren't enough workers in this country to fill the jobs available, assuming you deport the illegals.

Your proposal makes approximately 163 million jobs available for all workers. Without the illegals, we will have approximately 157 million workers to do those jobs (assuming we roll-in the currently unemployed). That leaves a 6 million deficit of workers to fill the jobs. You're overlooking simple math! You'll have 163 million jobs to be done, and only 157 million to do 'em!

And, I've LIVED through the manufacturing job losses. . . Fort Wayne, Indiana. . . former home of International Harvester, General Electric, Werlitzer, Tokheim, Bowmar, etc. I'm familiar with crumbling local economies, as well as brave people who overcome the adversity. But your proposal would be catastrophic on the [STRIKE]national[/STRIKE] GLOBAL level!
 
Thoughts from along the way:

If we think immigration should be free and open, we should (1) work to change the law and/or (2) buy property along the border and put out a welcome mat.

Don't tax money sent to Mexico or anyplace else; just require a valid SS#, and for those failing that check, confiscate the money and toss it against the national debt.

The FedGov will never build a useful wall; it will take the states, or private property owners, to do that.

Most of these illegals are paying thousands to someone to get them across the border -- why not just sell green cards for the same price?
 
I think wage suppression is a very valid issue vis a vie the illegals, but there would seem to be more jobs than Americans can fill. There also is the question of what kind of pay one would have to offer to induce Americans to work many of these jobs and how inflationary the result would be. I have to believe that more jobs would be shipped over seas and more crops imported from South America and China expanding an already huge trade deficit. Do we want to be dependent on the rest of the world for everything we consume?

We need temporary workers. The only questions are: How many and under what circumstances?

How do we deport 12 million people?

Oh Dear! Did I misinterpret and offend the libertarian Fantasy Club again? Sorry.
 
^ Still hyperbole, worrying about all these jobs that will apparently devastate our economy somehow if we are to follow the law. And by this I can see what it takes to get you to unburden yourself from the Neo-Liberal Fantasy delusion: "There also is the question of what kind of pay one would have to offer to induce Americans to work many of these jobs and how inflationary the result would be." Right, how much is it to get legal citizens to the job we can pay foreigners sub-living wages to do for us? I really find it difficult to see how you guys fail to see wage slavery for what it is---still treating people as subhuman. This is a prime example.

You really don't see a problem with a shortage of workers? To top it off, we "baby boomers" wanna retire soon. . . but, I guess you won't let us retire as we get old & feeble, because there will be all these jobs to be filled?
 
^ Still hyperbole, worrying about all these jobs that will apparently devastate our economy somehow if we are to follow the law. And by this I can see what it takes to get you to unburden yourself from the Neo-Liberal Fantasy delusion: "There also is the question of what kind of pay one would have to offer to induce Americans to work many of these jobs and how inflationary the result would be." Right, how much is it to get legal citizens to the job we can pay foreigners sub-living wages to do for us? I really find it difficult to see how you guys fail to see wage slavery for what it is---still treating people as subhuman. This is a prime example.

My father used to own an apartment building. Three-quarters of the residents were Mexicans earning "sub-living wages". But on those wages they managed to feed kids, pay the rent, send dollars to relatives in Mexico, buy powerful stereos to blast out Hispanic hits, drink on the weekends, and own vehicles.

I think a problem here is what Americans consider a "living wage". The figure is plainly higher than what's indicated by reality, because immigrants across Oregon -- legal and illegal -- are managing to live on those "sub-living wages" quite well. My suspicion is that Americans have gotten so accustomed to having things convenient and easy that they've gotten lazy and don't pay attention to what they spend; they are undisciplined and incompetent with regard to finances and budgeting.

As for shipping jobs overseas, the wages paid by corporations such as Nike look degrading to us, but invariably those wages make the employees almost wealthy compared to their peers in those countries. Were U.S.-based corporations to pay U.S.-standard wages overseas, one result would be local inflation, driving the economic bottom-of-the-rung populace farther down into poverty.

Government does not help; it contributes to the problem, making a "living wage" artificially high due to piles and tangles of regulation, from zoning to building codes and beyond. In the Pacific Northwest, the cost of a home is inflated by roughly 20% due to inspections, permits, and other paperwork; second-hand houses are frequently priced out of range of any but the upper middle-class by regulations that require upgrading to existing codes before a sale can be approved (a fact I've made good money from, occasionally). But each upgrade raises the value of a house, not infrequently as much as doubling; ripple effect raises the value of neighboring homes, raising taxes in turn, and for a minority of homeowners that means being unable to get by -- or to upgrade their houses so they can move. They are forced to pull back on their lifestyle, but rarely manage to learn what the Mexicans know; indeed, if they are retirees, they are often cornered into selling their homes below value, with the sale price reduced by the amount needed to upgrade to existing codes.

Of course the Mexicans are often living in "substandard" housing, though to them that housing is a giant step up from what they had in Mexico, both in quality and square footage -- I recall a family with two parents, a grandmother, two uncles (brother of wife, brother of husband), and six kids marveling at the "magnificence" of an apartment with but two bedrooms, a small bathroom, a tiny kitchen, and a living room, that in terms of code was barely up to 1960s standards. They were thrilled at their step up in the world, instead of believing they were owed the latest thing(s).

Maybe if we were willing to settle for things besides the latest and best, and go with better-than-before, this economic tangle would melt away.
 
People can and do have multiple jobs and legal immigration will continue. If our economy is in such desperate need for workers, then it will be handled as the market necessitates. Even if you guys retire, do you think the ILLEGAL immigrants are going to help fund Social Security? You aren't offering a viable solution, just a BushRepublicanRovian-esque scare tactic.

Last I knew, illegal immigrants were funding Social Security -- with no possibility of getting anything back, because their payments were being "credited" to non-existent account numbers. Employers are required to take that 8% out, regardless.
 
People can and do have multiple jobs and legal immigration will continue. If our economy is in such desperate need for workers, then it will be handled as the market necessitates. Even if you guys retire, do you think the ILLEGAL immigrants are going to help fund Social Security? You aren't offering a viable solution, just a BushRepublicanRovian-esque scare tactic.

I'm saying we need to look for REAL solutions, not ones that endanger the financial bedrock of the country.

Here's a solution. . . annex Mexico. <shrug> Why not? Any thoughts?
 
I'm saying we need to look for REAL solutions, not ones that endanger the financial bedrock of the country.

Here's a solution. . . annex Mexico. <shrug> Why not? Any thoughts?


LOL!!

When I first heard about all this illegal immigration stuff, that was my initial "joke" response. I realize that with the current state of things, it's impossible, but who knows? Fifty years from now, the whole of North America maybe an "American Union" to mirror our brothers from across the Atlantic. Though "United States of America" is also a good name for this proposed league of states. ^_^

Right now though, the corruption is too much down there and the nationalism way to high. Though I could see the US and Canada mergin in the next century. That'd be kinda cool, actually. I haven't met many, but what Canadians I know are awesome people (a little crazy and slightly socialistic sometimes, but we're headed that way ourselves...), but cool. There are also a lot of cute guys up in Canada for some reason, and I have wanted to visit...grr, I can't think of the name of the city...very bit city, wide range of nationalities, I know two people that live there, population of 10 something (not sure if it was million or not, can't remember now.)

...darn, I hate it when that happens. Ontario, Quebec...maybe it started with a C...probably not...

I know a lot of USicans wouldn't like it, and the Canadians wouldn't like it at the moment, but with the right leaders and Presidents for a few decades to bring us into a reasonably good place instead of the muck we're in now, I could see that happening.

I think it's more likely that Mexico would go south and form a "Latin American Union" instead, prefering that over joining a USA+Canada nation...but at least by then we'd have a wall built and got some serious reform that makes legal imigration a realistic and viable alternative for those people that want to come.



...what? I'm an idealist, remember! I'd love to see a world were we can live in peace and good realtions with each other. And if the closest thing to that is te USA and Canada being friends and merging, than that's what I'll idealize about...though I'm likely to forget about it within the next five minutes, but that's cause I'm hyperthoughted tonight anyway. -shrug-
 
I think that sounds tyrannical; worse than the socialism I espouse because you are dictating to people how to live, while I prefer equity through government control of inherently monopolistic corporations. Of course, your suggestion was just that, but if I'm certain there are those that would wrap an entire economic system around it... like Communists, perhaps?

???

People stopping acting spoiled and giving up believing that 'society' owes them all kinds of good stuff without their really working for it is tyrannical? Getting the government out of the picture and letting people be responsible for themselves is tyrannical? Letting people choose how fancy they want their living conditions to be is tyrannical?

I "dictating" that people act responsibly and be allowed to be responsible, as opposed to the current system where they're told what they can buy, what changes they can make, stuck with one-size-for-all quality controls instead of choice.

Just what were you reading to come to the conclusions you wrote?????
 
I was reading what you wrote here: Within it you mention nothing of the government, you were saying what they ought to buy, what changes they ought to make; in other words, you were stating that their choice should not be for the best, but for better-than-before. You also mention a fault of education, that people aren't disciplined and are incompetent with regards to finances and budgeting... perhaps you just suggested a new required course before graduating high school (and/or college).

If you can get that out of this:

My suspicion is that Americans have gotten so accustomed to having things convenient and easy that they've gotten lazy and don't pay attention to what they spend; they are undisciplined and incompetent with regard to finances and budgeting....Maybe if we were willing to settle for things besides the latest and best, and go with better-than-before, this economic tangle would melt away.

... there's something seriously wrong. First, it's torn out of context, but, second, it's saying people should actually have a choice, not be forced into one route regardless. It says not a thing about what anyone "ought to do"; it observes realities which contribute to the current mess. The context talks about the government forcing people into having no choices, thus making it impossible for them to afford a life, while pointing out that the government and liberal society have taught them they aren't responsible for themselves, anyway, so they don't have to put up with needing any such things as imagination, creativity, energy, or responsibility.

Now, you turned that all on its head how????
 
Of course... the biggest issue isn't all that has been said here... Its the fact that politicians are elected to work FOR the people not against... and when so many people in the U.S. are screaming to deport these ILLEGALS... and congress is willing to give them amnesty... they aren't listening to the people who elected them...
 
It's even more complicated than that. If you are speaking of the Mexican border problem, NAFTA allowed American and Canadian industries to build factories along the Mexican border which caused a major influx of poor uneducated Mexicans to leave their farms and villages and gravitate to the promised jobs in the Milquiladoras (the US and Canadian factories) for which they were not qualified in any way for. This influx of people had nowhere to go, because the new factories and their lucky employees caused a spike in the local border economy causing the price of tortillas and beans to rise beyond the reach of the poor and dispossessed. And across the border, there was a golden land of opportunity (export TV shows told them so). So they all came north.

Subsequently, many of the factories began to close, because it was discovered by the ruling class in America and Canada that Mexico had really little to offer in the way of educated and trainable workers. The factories moved on to Asia, and India, (More tech oriented workers) and left a mass of people in Mexico with great expectations and nowhere to go but north.

This is the most calculated failure of political thinking in the first world ever to come down the pike.

I reminds me of the Scientific studies of animals in the wild. The caveat given to those researchers is to never interfere or alter the animal's environment and social interactions, but just the fact that they often dart the animals to attach tracking collars, and shadow the animal's movements to observe their interactions, alters the environment and social interactions of the animals being studied.

We might as well give up trying to stop this migration north, because the dye has been cast, and in fact, there are jobs no one wants to do in the US and Canada anymore. Imagine, we can all have beautifully landscaped yards for a few cents a day, and clean houses for a change for even less. Keeping up with the Jones will be even more economical than ever before.

Now there's a perspective that I haven't read before.

Thanks for sharing that. ..|
 
By reading what you typed, Kulindahr. Even within context, government was introduced after you raised the point and then you reiterated said point after your anti-government rant. If that's your spin on what you said, then that's fine (even though I still disagree with the baseless accusation), but that spin isn't to what I was responding at first.

How can this be misconstrued: "Maybe if we were willing to settle for things besides the latest and best, and go with better-than-before, this economic tangle would melt away."? Yeah, that government forced this 42 in LCD HDTV on me, even though I could've chosen a 37 inch plasma instead, which is still better than the 26 inch LCD I was replacing. Fucking Dubya and his taking my choices away... *rolls eyes*

I've never seen you twist and misconstrue like this before. I just re-read my original post, and it's about freedom, and getting away from the government-fed faith that it's a good thing to live off what other people have worked hard for, and not try to be thrifty or energetic or responsible.

Even to get what you wrote above out of the quote you buried in it requires mangling and twisting of the words! You're imposing a "spin", attacking it, and concluding that my words mean the opposite of what they said.
But if you want to take a sentence that's plainly about exercising responsible personal choices and drag in government coercion to somehow argue that the point of the sentence was the establishment of tyranny, be my guest -- just don't expect me to believe that what my post said is "spin" but your re-interpretation of it is the actual meaning.
 
Of course... the biggest issue isn't all that has been said here... Its the fact that politicians are elected to work FOR the people not against... and when so many people in the U.S. are screaming to deport these ILLEGALS... and congress is willing to give them amnesty... they aren't listening to the people who elected them...

Since most Americans didn't elect them, what's the big deal if they choose to represent millions of people who voted with their feet?

BTW -- I haven't heard any amnesty proposals out of Congress; are you talking from the history books? :confused:
 
Back
Top