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Occupy Wall Street

barnbuddy said:
US First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
. . . .

they knew sanctioning, even encouraging, protest would be present a threat to gov't stability

or private economic interests - and that was the intent
Click to expand...

Exactly -- they wanted government heads to rest uneasy so they'd pay attention to the people.

Remember Jefferson thought a revolution overthrowing the government every generation would be a good idea.
 
I have no idea whether you are right about Jefferson or pulling a wild idea out of your ass.

However, it's hard to believe that someone who was interested in so many classical things was a war hound who wanted perpetual war.

Are you saying that Jefferson was a "Dick Cheney" that you love to demonize?

Kulindahr said:
Exactly -- they wanted government heads to rest uneasy so they'd pay attention to the people.

Remember Jefferson thought a revolution overthrowing the government every generation would be a good idea.
Click to expand...
 
^ Jefferson was quite a firebrand and despised what the US Government became under Adams. What you seemingly forget Jack is that Jefferson actually witnessed the French Revolution taking hold when he was Minister to France (foreign diplomat would be the modern term). Jefferson was a firm believer that complacency bred incompetence which is where the idea of a generational revolution took hold. A little US history goes a long way.

Back on topic, I find it a bit disgusting that people are stereotyping all bankers. Considering I am one of those "bankers" you better look at management at the top and not the bottom. I do feel the people at the top of many of those corporations are corrupt and that their bonuses are completely outrageous.
 
This is funny, I went to find the Thomas Jefferson quote and ran across these.


He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to ... remain silent.

Thomas Jefferson 3rd President (1801-1809)

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." Thomas Jefferson
 
Jack Springer said:
I have no idea whether you are right about Jefferson or pulling a wild idea out of your ass.

However, it's hard to believe that someone who was interested in so many classical things was a war hound who wanted perpetual war.

Are you saying that Jefferson was a "Dick Cheney" that you love to demonize?
Click to expand...

Some pertinent quotes:

“Every generation needs a new revolution.”

“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.”

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. "


As to your reference to war:

"I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind. "


And appropriate to the thread:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies."

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."

"Leave no authority existing not responsible to the people."

"Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains."

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
 
White Eagle said:
This is funny, I went to find the Thomas Jefferson quote and ran across these.


He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to ... remain silent.

Thomas Jefferson 3rd President (1801-1809)

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." Thomas Jefferson
Click to expand...

The quote in red is falsified. The first evidence is that the term "deflation" wasn't used with respect to economics until the late nineteenth or early twentieth century. "Inflation" was used in an economic sense only slightly earlier. Snopes calls the quotation false.
 
maxpowr9 said:
^ Jefferson was quite a firebrand and despised what the US Government became under Adams. What you seemingly forget Jack is that Jefferson actually witnessed the French Revolution taking hold when he was Minister to France (foreign diplomat would be the modern term). Jefferson was a firm believer that complacency bred incompetence which is where the idea of a generational revolution took hold. A little US history goes a long way.

Back on topic, I find it a bit disgusting that people are stereotyping all bankers. Considering I am one of those "bankers" you better look at management at the top and not the bottom. I do feel the people at the top of many of those corporations are corrupt and that their bonuses are completely outrageous.
Click to expand...

I agree about some at the top who deserve looking into by their stockholders. A company I worked for got screwed by the bankruptcy of one of our customers.

I did some research after our losses and came across Edgars Archive in sec.gov. The archive is a great source of information about US corporations, including some of the special privileges, bonuses, income, and perks of upper management and boards of directors. The word "disgusted" didn't even come close to some of the stuff I've read.

It provided hours of interesting reading while I traveled with a company computer.

If you know of any BOD openings, I'd be happy to apply.
 
Ok, I'm impressed you found a lot of Jefferson quotes -- but does he really mean that he would like each generation to go through a revolution?

I don't think so. If he did, he must not have been very proud that he helped create the US, but felt it needed to be overthrown each generation.

Kulindahr said:
Some pertinent quotes:

“Every generation needs a new revolution.”

“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.”

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. "


As to your reference to war:

"I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind. "


And appropriate to the thread:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies."

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."

"Leave no authority existing not responsible to the people."

"Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains."

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
Click to expand...
 
Jack Springer said:
Ok, I'm impressed you found a lot of Jefferson quotes -- but does he really mean that he would like each generation to go through a revolution?

I don't think so. If he did, he must not have been very proud that he helped create the US, but felt it needed to be overthrown each generation.
Click to expand...

He was very pessimistic about the ability of people to resist tyranny.


BTW, thanks for once again demonstrating a capacity to show us wild jumps unconnected by logic to the starting point.
 
The starting point or subject of the thread is Occupy Wall Street, not Jefferson.

It appears you are the one who went off topic, I was just responding to you off-topic response.

Kulindahr said:
He was very pessimistic about the ability of people to resist tyranny.


BTW, thanks for once again demonstrating a capacity to show us wild jumps unconnected by logic to the starting point.
Click to expand...
 
Jack Springer said:
The starting point or subject of the thread is Occupy Wall Street, not Jefferson.

It appears you are the one who went off topic, I was just responding to you off-topic response.
Click to expand...

I haven't yet gone off topic.

Your bringing that up is interesting, though -- and yet another wild irrational leap.
 
Kulindahr said:
As long as you keep ignoring a sound and fundamental criticism, I'll repeat it until you pay attention.

I don't see the current plunderer's concept of private property as sacrosanct, and I don't see it as a Constitutional right. It's an artificial construct that has to give way to fundamental human rights.
Click to expand...

Your criticism is neither sound nor fundamental. You are trying to create a reason why these protestors should be allowed to stay in a privately owned park using specious logic and false premises. If the OWS movement is relying on arguments such as yours, they are doomed to fail.
 
White Eagle said:
Here's a WSJ article concerning Zuccotti Park.The Real Estate Board of New York wants to change the RULES so they can close the parks from 1am to 5am, however the protesters have the support of many local elected officials. It hass to go thru several boards to be done. This is of course unconstitutional IMHO.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204002304576631413421195574.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

.

--snip---



So let's just wait and see if REBNY can get their 1% over the problem of OWS.
If you ask me they will not succeed.
Click to expand...

Its not unconstitutional, but it certainly is wrong.
 
JB3 said:
Your criticism is neither sound nor fundamental. You are trying to create a reason why these protestors should be allowed to stay in a privately owned park using specious logic and false premises. If the OWS movement is relying on arguments such as yours, they are doomed to fail.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to create anything. I noticed years ago that the current system of real estate as private property is a system of tyranny, based on plunder. It relies on force from beginning to end, and as such rests on "might makes right" for a foundation.

How does one get property? By force. All present real estate depends on force as its origin, especially in the United States. It was all stolen from its original holders. Buying real estate means purchasing stolen goods.

But more importantly, the system denies a right to own real estate. Real estate must be bought, from an exclusive club which holds the finite quantity by force. All those not born to it are outside the club.

The specious logic here is yours: you can't give a reason at all why dollars and force should trump basic human rights. The right to free speech can't be turned off due to someone's location.
 
Kulindahr said:
I'm not trying to create anything. I noticed years ago that the current system of real estate as private property is a system of tyranny, based on plunder. It relies on force from beginning to end, and as such rests on "might makes right" for a foundation.

How does one get property? By force. All present real estate depends on force as its origin, especially in the United States. It was all stolen from its original holders. Buying real estate means purchasing stolen goods.

But more importantly, the system denies a right to own real estate. Real estate must be bought, from an exclusive club which holds the finite quantity by force. All those not born to it are outside the club.

The specious logic here is yours: you can't give a reason at all why dollars and force should trump basic human rights. The right to free speech can't be turned off due to someone's location.
Click to expand...


American Indians had no concept of private land ownership. It didn't exist in their culture. So, how can you steal something from someone who doesn't even assert so much as a claim of ownership?

You have as much right to own real estate as you do a new Ford pickup. The Ford dealer has a finite quantity that he holds by force, does he not? It's that way with everything in life. You need money, or something that someone else values to exchange for something you want that someone else has.
 
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