Occupy Wall Street

[Kulindahr]

Whatever you say. You advocate treating police officers like less than human because they are servants. I am glad I am not working in your household. Sounds like a truly shitty place to be --- under your heel.

If that is NOT what you meant then how do you mean that public servants should be allowed to be screamed at and taunted at the whim of those they work for?

Sounds to me as if your mind is clouded by hate for police officers.

Dont get me wrong I think MANY police officers do shitty things and dont defend their every breath BUT people dont get a free pass simply because of someones job status.

The public servants are out there doing that on BEHALF of the 98% of people who are not A) millionaires or B) apart of the one tenth of a percent of people who call themselves the 99%. So since they do it on your tax paying behalf they are in fact representing you.

Would YOU want a man in your face screaming and running up at you?

Sounds like in your household, the servants can piss on the kids and serve your dinner on old cardboard and they'd be fine 'cause they're just doing their jobs.

NYPD was considered heroes after 9-11. Now they're scum -- they've been beating people, pepper-spraying people, arresting people for NOTHING. Any cops witnessing that and not arresting their fellow officers are just as guilty. Any cops aware of it and not pressing an investigation are just as guilty.

Public servants have to be held to a higher standard. If a citizen punches another citizen, it's assault -- if a cop pushes a citizen, that should be assault. But instead they get away with lying, deceiving, manipulating, intimidating, threatening, pushing, hitting, and more. With that crap going on, every cop in NY with a sense of honor should be walking up to the protesters and apologizing, and promising to push for not just an investigation but severe punishment for the cops abusing people.

And BTW, as a camp counselor and as a swim instructor and lifeguard I've had people screaming in my face and running at me. Did I want it? No. Did I realize it came with the territory? Absolutely. If you can't handle it and be polite, you don't take that kind of job.

If my mind is clouded, that's what it's clouded by: knowing the responsibility involved and having a grasp of the honor and its code that come with any such job.

 

[JayHawk]

And BTW, as a camp counselor and as a swim instructor and lifeguard I've had people screaming in my face and running at me. Did I want it? No. Did I realize it came with the territory? Absolutely. If you can't handle it and be polite, you don't take that kind of job.

If my mind is clouded, that's what it's clouded by: knowing the responsibility involved and having a grasp of the honor and its code that come with any such job.

As a camp counselor, swim instructor and life guard if you have people in your community who act like that fucking jackass in that video then you live on a insane asylum. That IS NOT how normal people act.

Like I said the police showed GREAT respect for the overly emotional during that period.


Oh and to your original ridiculous assertion that my servants (as fucking if) ... that my servants can piss on the kids? No I believe everyone gets to act like an adult. Strange huh....

 

[White Eagle]

Thanks Kuli, well said.
I noticed that theFallenGod says the videos are edited. Not showing why the cops are attacking the protesters, not showing what the protesters have done to cause it.
IMHO it doesn't matter what the protester did, the cops should not be beating them. Arrest them? Of course. But lay off of the brutality.

 

[JayHawk]

And the last time you were in a frenzied crowd of people was when?

There is too much edited video to make a decision either way has been my point for a while.

The fun thing to do is get all smarmy about how cops should act when very few of the people who post on here have an idea what it is like.

So cut video and lies are the basis for outrage? Good call. Have fun with that.

 

[IokuA47]

The videos are not cut. You clearly see:

!) An innocent man being run over.

2) a woman being dragged by a man in civilian clothes back in a bank. (Remember, she "refused to leave")

3) A man getting punched, earing ripped out, (What did that guy do to the police? "Elbowed him." Yet he was WALKING AWAY. I guess that still justifies what he did. BTW it didn't have anything to do with him being HIV+, that was discovered after the fact in a responsible manner by the guy telling the police to get tested).

4) Innocent women being pepper sprayed.

And more.

You don't need "editing" to paint the real picture. The real picture is we live in a fascist country where the 1% tell us what to do and how to act and we have no freedom.

 

[JayHawk]

Agreed it is irresponsible to attribute the intent of all to the few. And one tenth of one percent wants to know tell us what we should do now and I am not buying it.

1) nothing was shown as to the activity PRIOR to the innocent man being run over. While tragic I would point out that if you lay in the street during a melee then unfortunate things happen.

2) The women was trying to RUN away from the crime she committed and was not allowed to do so. Again I ask WHERE is the protestor video INSIDE prior to the arrest? Not public because it is incriminating and they know it.

3) Next time you see a group of cops go "elbow" one and see the result. Do you honestly believe he bumped into the cop and that set off a violent tirade? AGAIN while is the before video not presented only the officer actions? To shade a bias maybe?

4) Pepper spray is a very humane method of crowd control. I am sure they simply fast roped in and started pepper spraying everyone in sight.

Editing isnt just cutting out parts in the middle. Leaving out the cause and effect prior to is very telling. Everyone of these crowds has fifty cell phones taking video so it is inconceivable that video does not exist. Or did exist before it was deleted for telling the cops story.

 

[JB3]

The videos are not cut. You clearly see:

!) An innocent man being run over.

2) a woman being dragged by a man in civilian clothes back in a bank. (Remember, she "refused to leave")

3) A man getting punched, earing ripped out, (What did that guy do to the police? "Elbowed him." Yet he was WALKING AWAY. I guess that still justifies what he did. BTW it didn't have anything to do with him being HIV+, that was discovered after the fact in a responsible manner by the guy telling the police to get tested).

4) Innocent women being pepper sprayed.

And more.

You don't need "editing" to paint the real picture. The real picture is we live in a fascist country where the 1% tell us what to do and how to act and we have no freedom.

Drama queen much?

 

[Kulindahr]

Thanks Kuli, well said.
I noticed that theFallenGod says the videos are edited. Not showing why the cops are attacking the protesters, not showing what the protesters have done to cause it.
IMHO it doesn't matter what the protester did, the cops should not be beating them. Arrest them? Of course. But lay off of the brutality.

QUite.

And the last time you were in a frenzied crowd of people was when?

There is too much edited video to make a decision either way has been my point for a while.

The fun thing to do is get all smarmy about how cops should act when very few of the people who post on here have an idea what it is like.

So cut video and lies are the basis for outrage? Good call. Have fun with that.

You're defending thugs. That's why I said apparently in your household the servants would be allowed to piss on the kids -- since they're servants, they can abuse the people they serve.

A cop pulling up in a car, jumping out and using pepper spray on random people is abuse. If a regular person does that, he goes to prison -- so should the cop.

I've had friends from Europe who have been astounded at the way cops here treat people. They especially couldn't believe the arrogance, the way cops expect to be obeyed without question. Yet here you are, supporting something much of the world has recognized as barbaric, a holdover from the day of kings when their servants could do no wrong.

It doesn't require knowing what a cop's job is like to know their behavior ought to be honorable. Yet the NYPD is showing itself dishonorable, and you defend that.

 

[White Eagle]

That’s not much of an explanation for the link you cited, so I’m not sure I follow your allegation. The article (apparently written by the arrestee) doesn’t mention “police state.” Do you think the President is manipulating the law to exercise his political power? Is Obama using the police as a means to control the population and thereby help create a situation of totalitarianism in America? [Wiki]

I found this article and it makes clear that I am not the only one who thinks we are becoming to live in a police state or Militarization of US Law Enforcement. This is what I meant and just didn't have the ideas to put it down on paper.

http://www.alternet.org/story/15281...itarization_of_us_law_enforcement?page=entire

AlterNet / By Rania Khalek

Why Are Police Attacking Peaceful Protesters? How OWS Has Exposed the Militarization of US Law Enforcement
As the number of OWS arrests nears 1,000, instances of police brutality continue to pile up. Now all of America is seeing the result of police militarization.
October 20, 2011 |


As the number of Occupy Wall Street arrests nears 1,000, instances of police brutality continue to pile up. Felix Rivera-Pitre was punched in the face in New York during a march through the city’s financial district; Ryan Hadar was dragged out of the street by his thumbs at Occupy San Francisco; and at Occupy Boston, members of Veterans for Peace were shoved to the ground and dragged away for chanting and peacefully occupying a local park.

 

[ChickenGuy]

Well, I have just for the first time opened this thread and skimmed through all 13 pages.

I had NO IDEA that the runaway capitalist situation in the United States had gotten so bad.

We now have the police arresting NON-PROTESTORS for standing on sidewalks, and arresting protestors for ANYTHING, including requesting their money out of banks, and asking questions or clarification from officers.

We also have a quite blatant attempt in some places to prevent protestors from marching ANYWHERE.

Meanwhile, in the right-wing fortress of propaganda, ALL protestors are being dehumanised and described as filthy pigs and scum, just like all those evil socialists are - opinions that are exemplified in the disgraceful posts of justapixel in the earlier parts of this thread.

Reminds me of the link to the debate in another thread, where Herman Cain was APPLAUDED by the audience for blaming the jobless and poor and claiming it's all their own fault.

I'm truly worried about where the United States is heading right now. I dread to think how it's going to be in 20 or 30 years at this rate.

I only wish that I believed all of these protests would make a change. But too many ordinary citizens and too large a proportion of the population in America have been corrupted by greed, self-centredness, materialism and the desire for wealth, that I can't see how anyone can stop the corporate capitalist juggernaut at this stage.

It's completely out of control.



But on the positive side, most of the JUBbers here are speaking sense, chief amongst them:

palemale, T-Rexx, White Eagle, BostonPirate, Kulindahr



And if I was over there, then for the first time in my life, I might just have joined a protest.

 

[White Eagle]

Jay Hawk
I want you to see how your favorite police officers have lived through all the bullshit the OWS have put them through.
This is about the pepper spraying cop Officer Bologna. It's funny that here in the US you don't see too many stories about what is happening in NYC. We have to go to the UK to get this story.
The poor thang only makes about $3000.o0 a week according to this story.That's $6000 for 2 weeks pay. He is part of the 1% if you ask me.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...thony-Bologna-Id-again.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

'I'd do it again,' says police commander filmed pepper spraying the faces of women at Occupy Wall Street protest
By Daily Mail Reporter

The police commander whose over-zealous use of pepper spray on Occupy Wall Street protesters was caught on video believes he used the correct amount of force and 'would do things the same way' if given a second chance.

Explaining himself to New York police's Internal Affairs, Deputy Inspector Anthony Bologna says he has been 'tortured' since the incident.

He is also apparently stunned by the angry reaction to video that showed him squirting pepper spray into the faces of four female protesters during a march near Union Square on September 24.

--snip--

In the end the NYPD ruled that Mr Bologna violated police guidelines during the incident, and told him on October 18 that he would be fined two weeks pay, approximately $6,000.

However, he still faces an inquiry by the Manhattan District Attorney’s office.

Bologna gave his side of the story in a two-hour interview with NYPD Internal Affairs 10 days ago.

 

[fetaby]

Tony Baloney...

 

[Kulindahr]

I found this article and it makes clear that I am not the only one who thinks we are becoming to live in a police state or Militarization of US Law Enforcement. This is what I meant and just didn't have the ideas to put it down on paper.

http://www.alternet.org/story/15281...itarization_of_us_law_enforcement?page=entire

Police never should have been allowed the use of firearms. They have turned into highly-paid thugs, a semi-military force available to the wealthy and powerful to crush dissent.

Any cop using force against a citizen who has not employed force against anyone should hang.

 

[Jack Springer]

If you think the USA is a police state or becoming one, you might want to visit one that actually is -- how about going to Iran for a month and living like you do here.

I'd suggest getting your affairs in order before you do though, because I doubt that you will never be heard from again.

Bottom line ... the US is not becoming a police state. The government is just enforcing the rules that we have insure that we live in a free country.

Quite frankly, I'm getting sick of all the whining about these poor protestors. Whine more about people without jobs, people losing their homes, people losing their savings. These protestors are caught up in a idea of living like the 60's. The only thing they have in common with 60's protestors is that their body stink, the drugs, and the few people who know how to pull their strings.

I found this article and it makes clear that I am not the only one who thinks we are becoming to live in a police state or Militarization of US Law Enforcement. This is what I meant and just didn't have the ideas to put it down on paper.

http://www.alternet.org/story/15281...itarization_of_us_law_enforcement?page=entire

 

[jackoroe]

QUite.



You're defending thugs. That's why I said apparently in your household the servants would be allowed to piss on the kids -- since they're servants, they can abuse the people they serve.

A cop pulling up in a car, jumping out and using pepper spray on random people is abuse. If a regular person does that, he goes to prison -- so should the cop.

I've had friends from Europe who have been astounded at the way cops here treat people. They especially couldn't believe the arrogance, the way cops expect to be obeyed without question. Yet here you are, supporting something much of the world has recognized as barbaric, a holdover from the day of kings when their servants could do no wrong.

It doesn't require knowing what a cop's job is like to know their behavior ought to be honorable. Yet the NYPD is showing itself dishonorable, and you defend that.

You appear to have a misunderstanding of the force continuum. The police have many tools at their disposal ranging from ordinary force, which includes voice commands physical force which is the use of hands, fists and feet, to mechanical and ultimately deadly force.

The misunderstanding seems to come from the misconception that force can only be met with equal force. That isn't the case. For example a citizen who uses physical force may be subdued using mechanical force like a baton. In some places, if you fail to simply submit to an arrest, you are subject to pepper spray or even being tazered. We can debate the relative merits of these policies or laws, but they do exist and have been upheld by the courts.

In terms of disobeying an officer's lawful command, debating it on the street doesn't ever work out for the citizen. That's why we have courts. You are not permitted to resist even an unlawful arrest believe it or not. There's plenty of case law on that issue as well.

 

[White Eagle]

Jack and jackoroe. You both have it wrong. These protesters are not doing anything to get arrested. According to the 1st amendment we have the right to protest on public areas. The parks are public, the sidewalks are public. They have done nothing to get peppersprayed. The Detective Bolony peppersprayed the women unlawfully. His command held the investigation and found he did not follow rules of the force. He was denied 2 weeks pay, $3000.00.
The other people who were arrested were not doing anything unlawful. Get over it!

 

[jackoroe]

Jack and jackoroe. You both have it wrong. These protesters are not doing anything to get arrested. According to the 1st amendment we have the right to protest on public areas. The parks are public, the sidewalks are public. They have done nothing to get peppersprayed. The Detective Bolony peppersprayed the women unlawfully. His command held the investigation and found he did not follow rules of the force. He was denied 2 weeks pay, $3000.00.
The other people who were arrested were not doing anything unlawful. Get over it!

Zucotti Park is privately owned. There is no Constitutional right to occupy someone else's property. There is similarly no Constitutional guarantee that protestors get to camp out overnight in violation of city ordinance. The sidewalks are indeed public property. The protestors have no Constitutional right to impair their availability to others, who may also wish to use them. There is no Constitutional right for the protestors to willfully obstruct traffic as they did on the Brooklyn Bridge, thereby impairing it's availability to others who may wish to use it.

I don't see anything in the Constitution that says the good people who actually live in lower Manhattan, must suffer protestors pissing and shitting all over their stoops and sidewalks. The neighbors, who pay rather substantially to live in NYC have about had it with these people.

 

[JayHawk]

No way other people have rights other than the protesters?

 

[White Eagle]

Zucotti Park is privately owned. There is no Constitutional right to occupy someone else's property. There is similarly no Constitutional guarantee that protestors get to camp out overnight in violation of city ordinance. The sidewalks are indeed public property. The protestors have no Constitutional right to impair their availability to others, who may also wish to use them. There is no Constitutional right for the protestors to willfully obstruct traffic as they did on the Brooklyn Bridge, thereby impairing it's availability to others who may wish to use it.

I don't see anything in the Constitution that says the good people who actually live in lower Manhattan, must suffer protestors pissing and shitting all over their stoops and sidewalks. The neighbors, who pay rather substantially to live in NYC have about had it with these people.

jackoroe, jackoroe, jackoroe,
Why must we go over this again and again. Zucotti Park IS privately owned, but it is open to the public 24/7.
If the protesters have broken any laws, please give a cite.
As for the Brooklyn Bridge, lets see how the law suit against the police or City comes out. I understand all 700 are going to ask for separate jury trials, I guess that would tie up NYC's courts for quite awhile.

 

[White Eagle]

Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right. Mahatma Gandhi, 1931