Occupy Wall Street

[BostonPirate]

actually, in the last two weeks their popularity has soared...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150164/americans-uncertain-occupy-wall-street-goals.aspx

october 15

and this released today, november 3...


More Americans supporting Occupy Wall Street

Sixty-four percent of respondents now say they've heard of the movement, compared to only 51% in the earlier poll.

The new poll also shows more Americans supporting the movement. Thirty-six percent say they agree with the overall positions of Occupy Wall Street, while 19% say they disagree.

so the movement is growing and more and more people are liking what they are seeing.

just want to set that record straight

 

[jackoroe]

Yeah, soared.

By a 39 - 30 percent margin, American voters have an unfavorable opinion of the Occupy Wall Street movement, with 30 percent who don't know enough about it for an opinion.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1670

And this was prior to the violent antics last night.

 

[BostonPirate]

there are more people who know who they are and there are more and more people agreeing with them as more and more protests continue.

Why is their expression of their civil rights so disturbing to you as a person?

what is it, exactly?

 

[TX-Beau]

Well,there's plenty to dislike, isn't there? They were busy setting fires, breaking windows and vandalizing property in Oakland last night, weren't they. Not exactly a peaceful group like we were led to believe, are they?

What do you call the tarring and feathering of tax agents, destruction of private property, and deliberate flouting of law?

Yeah, not much to like about that American Revolution is there.

Please.

You just don't like them, you were there from the start. They could be meek as lambs and you'd be hating them for getting all that wool on the grass. Why? Dudgeon? Caprice? Petty snobbery?

"...Only the shadow knows..."

 

[TX-Beau]

Why is their expression of their civil rights so disturbing to you as a person?

what is it, exactly?

I suspect it's because people on the right don't really like the idea of liberty. They'd rather have status quo - that doesn't scare them in the least.

The right has been migrating away from civil liberties in fact as well as word for a long time.

 

[Kulindahr]

Again, there's this pesky thing that the forefathers built into the Constitution called voting.

Use it!

And how has it been working?

You've communicated to us clearly that you're a reactionary Tory in philosophy. I suppose it's not surprising that you use the Constitution as a tool of oppression rather than one of freedom.

One of your fellow reactionaries here has a Jefferson quote for a signature. Well, here's another bit from Jefferson: every generation should have a revolution. And from common sense: peaceful revolutions are better than violent ones.

We're overdue by about a dozen revolutions. This is a peaceful one, except for the violence-loving anarchists who've infiltrated.

But you should be happy with them -- they have the polar opposite doctrine from what you hold: you like a state where police can use violence at will, they prefer a state where citizens can use violence at will.
Both are despicable.

^It's all contingent on what instructions the goofy politicians are giving the police. If they are to do their jobs effectively, they need to be free to wander into these camps as they may. The OWS gang has decided they want to do their own security and the politicians have instructed the police to simply maintain the perimeter.

Essentially, what's happened is areas of lawlessness have been established. And yes, that includes people shitting and pissing all over the very areas they are sleeping in.

Doesn't it strike you as even remotely odd that NYC has such a major hard on for people using salt or smoking a cigarette outside in a public park, but that we should accept behavior that is known to cause outbreaks of cholera and other diseases without question? In fact, we should ridicule people who condemn these acts?

Do the protestors have a right to be safe? Of course they do, same as you and I. But the fact is, both the protestors and the politicians don't want the cops in these camps keeping people safe. So, we get what we've got. Be careful what you ask for in life, you may get it.

Jackoroe, we get by now that you're so partisan you don't care if what you say about these people is true, as long as you can slander them. And you aren't interested in "government of the people, by the people, and for the people", which is what those camps are exercising. People have the right to form the government they want -- that's in the Declaration of Independence. The Occupy movement is just doing that. The existing structure is in their opinion destructive of the ends for which government is formed, so they're doing what the Founding Fathers did -- they're just trying to do it within the system instead of doing the French Revolution thing.

The Republic we have has ossified and become steadily more oppressive. The insistence on basic rights and getting along that this movement represents is the sort of revolution we need -- maybe not what Jefferson recommended, but it is a breath of fresh air battling against an enemy he also despised: giant corporations.

 

[BostonPirate]

What do you call the tarring and feathering of tax agents, destruction of private property, and deliberate flouting of law?

Yeah, not much to like about that American Revolution is there.

Please.

You just don't like them, you were there from the start. They could be meek as lambs and you'd be hating them for getting all that wool on the grass. Why? Dudgeon? Caprice? Petty snobbery?

"...Only the shadow knows..."

"This is the most magnificent movement of all! There is a dignity, a majesty, a sublimity, in this last effort of the patriots that I greatly admire. The people should never rise without doing something to be remembered — something notable and striking. This destruction of the tea is so bold, so daring, so firm, intrepid and inflexible, and it must have so important consequences, and so lasting, that I can't but consider it as an epocha in history!" - John Adams, Diary entry, about the Boston Tea Party, December 17, 1773

I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country. Thomas Jefferson

 

[Kulindahr]

Looks like you got your wish - anarchy in Oakland.

It's really hard to take a person like you very serious who believes that rape is OK. I'd suggest some counseling -- lots of it.

You're in rare form -- two lies to open a post.

Occupy is following the pattern of 60's radicals -- protest, organize a "council" (since there is no organization without leaders), the leaders will be highly educated sons and daughters of wealthy people, move to violence (Oakland, rape, stealing, vandalism has already happened), attack a government institution (that's coming -- wonder what it will be and when), go underground.

However, there is one new ingredient to this mix -- a US President who believes in "the cause".

I'm not sure how it will turn out.

And this is false, too, just misrepresentation and slander via guilt by association. Two news stations here last night reported that some of the people inciting violence are the same anarchists who like to go from WTO meeting to G8 (or 9 or whatever they are now) destroying things -- they're not part of the movement, they're a disease infesting it.

Just admit that you really don't like people acting or choosing on their own; you want them to be the sheeple cowering before police power -- it would make the discussion more honest.

 

[Kulindahr]

Beside. The. Point. Period. You just don't like the protesters, for whatever reason. Why is it that right wingers who are all jingoistic flag and country, teary eyed defenders of the constitution (or at least the second amendment - abandon it with abhorrence the moment ir rears it's head? Protest is our earliest tradition after all.

Or is it that revolutionary protests of our sainted Forefathers (who would be shitting in the park with the hippies) is too lofty and holy to be equated with the protests of later generations in response to the most recent conservative fuck you handed out to us.

We are a nation founded by protesters and revolutionaries who shit wherever they damn well pleased!!! (grin)

My Great Aunt is a Jurassic bigot and homophobe who's still alive because she's to mean to die and give us Faggots and Negroes the satisfaction.

Yes. The Tea Party people had to pee and poo, too, so obviously they were peeing and pooing all over the place, making a sanitary problem.

 

[jackoroe]

there are more people who know who they are and there are more and more people agreeing with them as more and more protests continue.

Why is their expression of their civil rights so disturbing to you as a person?

what is it, exactly?

I have an issue with people setting things on fire, breaking windows and vandalizing property that isn't theirs. I have a problem with people denying others an opportunity to earn a living as was done last night in Oakland.

I have a problem with people raping and otherwise assaulting other people and stealing their possessions. And yes, I have problem with people behaving like monkeys in a zoo crapping and pissing all over an otherwise very nice area of NY and other places.

I have a problem in that people who are unfortunate enough to live in proximity to these assemblages of protestors/rioters aren't able to enjoy their rights to quiet enjoyment of their property. To not be harassed and otherwise verbally assaulted by these people.

You have a right to speak your mind. There is no right to engage in the violent activity these people have chosen. If you think America will support their violence, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[jackoroe]

Yes. The Tea Party people had to pee and poo, too, so obviously they were peeing and pooing all over the place, making a sanitary problem.

Bullshit. The Tea Party left everyplace they went cleaner then when they found it. There were no riots, no need to tear gas them and they actually bothered to get permits to hold their gatherings.

 

[Kulindahr]

Bullshit. The Tea Party left everyplace they went cleaner then when they found it. There were no riots, no need to tear gas them and they actually bothered to get permits to hold their gatherings.

Thank you for conceding the point: just because a bunch of people are together in one place doesn't mean they pee and poo everywhere.

Now can we abandon the fallacious slander and get to serious discussion?

 

[BostonPirate]

I have an issue with people setting things on fire, breaking windows and vandalizing property that isn't theirs. I have a problem with people denying others an opportunity to earn a living as was done last night in Oakland.

I have a problem with people raping and otherwise assaulting other people and stealing their possessions. And yes, I have problem with people behaving like monkeys in a zoo crapping and pissing all over an otherwise very nice area of NY and other places.

I have a problem in that people who are unfortunate enough to live in proximity to these assemblages of protestors/rioters aren't able to enjoy their rights to quiet enjoyment of their property. To not be harassed and otherwise verbally assaulted by these people.

You have a right to speak your mind. There is no right to engage in the violent activity these people have chosen. If you think America will support their violence, you are sadly mistaken.

no

I don't think that it will

AND

I think people are more likely to blame the Corporations for it than they will the protesters. An angry mob does not have a face. but a corporation? they have a logo and a CEO.

looking back through recent history... The civil rights riots of the sixties, The Rodney king Riots, The last full strike in Oakland in the mid forties, a red sox game...

all these things are precipitated by some one action easily seen in hindsight as easily fixed, that could have avoided the violence.

If the Police had used restraint and toleration instead of control and violence....

Rodney King... the Beatings of the Civil rights leaders... the general sympathy of other workers when being hassled while expressing their first amendment rignts was the catalyst for the Oakland general strike of the forties.

look into it. Its interesting.

also what is interesting is that in every instance, these events have brought about the change the people wanted but were being denied.

Think about that.

 

[Kulindahr]

I have a problem in that people who are unfortunate enough to live in proximity to these assemblages of protestors/rioters aren't able to enjoy their rights to quiet enjoyment of their property. To not be harassed and otherwise verbally assaulted by these people.

Freedom is inconvenient.

 

[TX-Beau]

I have an issue with people setting things on fire, breaking windows and vandalizing property that isn't theirs. I have a problem with people denying others an opportunity to earn a living as was done last night in Oakland.

I have a problem with people raping and otherwise assaulting other people and stealing their possessions. And yes, I have problem with people behaving like monkeys in a zoo crapping and pissing all over an otherwise very nice area of NY and other places.

I have a problem in that people who are unfortunate enough to live in proximity to these assemblages of protestors/rioters aren't able to enjoy their rights to quiet enjoyment of their property. To not be harassed and otherwise verbally assaulted by these people.

You have a right to speak your mind. There is no right to engage in the violent activity these people have chosen. If you think America will support their violence, you are sadly mistaken.

You have a problem with people you don't like forcing you to pay attention to things you don't want to hear.

And you were already there before you made one single accusation about monkeys or zoos or raping blind people.

Which metaphor is pretty telling actually.

 

[Kulindahr]

also what is interesting is that in every instance, these events have brought about the change the people wanted but were being denied.

Think about that.

And it's much nicer than the wholesale shooting of public officials in order to get new faces, which Jefferson arguably supported.

I still wonder why Jackoroe isn't living up to his signature by advocating that the protesters get armed, and drill and practice.

 

[TX-Beau]

I wonder why he hasn't said a damn thing about the loss of property and income that precipitated this movement in the first place.

How many people lost their homes and jobs getting us to this point?

It's unfortunate when things get rough, but it is deceit to blame the disposed and ignored for their anger.

Jackaore WHY are they so pissed off?

 

[Kulindahr]

I wonder why he hasn't said a damn thing about the loss of property and income that precipitated this movement in the first place.

How many people lost their homes and jobs getting us to this point?

It's unfortunate when things get rough, but it is deceit to blame the disposed and ignored for their anger.

Jackaore WHY are they so pissed off?

Reactionaries aren't willing to admit that ANYTHING done by lawyers and the police is not just squeaky clean morally. It comes from falling for the fallacy that whatever the laws says, is good. These protesters know that the good precedes the law and the law may be judged by it, not the other way around.

That's an especially bizarre approach for Christians, considering that Jesus taught that the Law/law must ALWAYS be set aside in favor of mercy.

 

[chrisrobin]

Yes, she is a bitch.

(I'm assuming you were calling her a bitch.)

You find it necessary to demonize everyone you don't like. By calling her a bitch, I was unsuccessfully trying to mock you. Also, everyone you disagree with has no redeeming qualities. I imagine most posters here really can't take you very seriously. Insulting someone is not the same as a rebuttal.

 

[jackoroe]

I wonder why he hasn't said a damn thing about the loss of property and income that precipitated this movement in the first place.

How many people lost their homes and jobs getting us to this point?

It's unfortunate when things get rough, but it is deceit to blame the disposed and ignored for their anger.

Jackaore WHY are they so pissed off?

It's more than "unfortunate" it's not acceptable. You lose the argument when you become violent. For the record, I'm glad to see that some of the protestors are repudiating the senseless violence. Destroying the property of others does nothing to bring yours back, does it?