Offended By Confederate Flag

[Kulindahr]

However you justify, the basic truth remains, one was master and one was slave; and therein lies the evil, no amount of "treating them nicely", like some kind of pet, changes that, and if reality offends you, you'd better learn to live with it.

Ugh -- yes, there were some who were treated like pets; I think I'd rather bne worked sixteen hours a day.
But I was referring to those who knew in the back of their minds that "my black companion is my property", but it never made a difference in how they treated each other... and when reminded of it, it hurt.
I think that hurt, that comaraderie, would have been the deathknell for slavery as surely as the economic changes coming down the line.

I'm justifying nothing; I'm pointing out that the reality wasn't abused slave v. brutal master, everywhere and with everyone. That fuller understanding is necessary to grasp history. It also serves as a greater condemnation for those who were brutal, as it demonstrated that one didn't have to treat others inhumanely to get service out of them.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

Ugh -- yes, there were some who were treated like pets; I think I'd rather bne worked sixteen hours a day.
But I was referring to those who knew in the back of their minds that "my black companion is my property", but it never made a difference in how they treated each other... and when reminded of it, it hurt.
I think that hurt, that comaraderie, would have been the deathknell for slavery as surely as the economic changes coming down the line.

I'm justifying nothing; I'm pointing out that the reality wasn't abused slave v. brutal master, everywhere and with everyone. That fuller understanding is necessary to grasp history. It also serves as a greater condemnation for those who were brutal, as it demonstrated that one didn't have to treat others inhumanely to get service out of them.

If you tell some southerners .. (the educated ones who I admire more then some people in the North) they will tell you that if you mention a confederate flag as their heritage.. they will be offended and do not wanna be associated with something that has a past of hatred and segregation of society. It's an insult to southern people everywhere that REALLY know the truth.


Also there are some mothers who are SERIOUSLY crazy and over-possessive.. they teach her children that all they need is their mother all their life. They are taught that they don't need romance or friends. The mother homeschools the child though they never use the skills. Their mother is their only friend.

THIS IS WRONG and FUCKED UP. It's not right. The child should have freedoms but he will never be educated on what he deserves.

Some slaves were close to their owners but most weren't

 

[TX-Beau]

I'm justifying nothing; I'm pointing out that the reality wasn't abused slave v. brutal master, everywhere and with everyone. That fuller understanding is necessary to grasp history. It also serves as a greater condemnation for those who were brutal, as it demonstrated that one didn't have to treat others inhumanely to get service out of them.

The ownership of one person over another is the brutality. There was no choice involved on the part of the slave, no one asked his opinion.

And the idea that somehow "nice masters" got work out of slaves they owned by being not being "inhumane'" takes us right back to offensive. Slavery itself is inhumane. They got work out of slaves because they owned them. There again is the brutality.

If they wanted to be nice, why weren't the slaves freed, surely such happy darkies would then volunteer to pick the cotton.

Everywhere slavery existed it existed as abuse of the slave.

 

[TX-Beau]

I know what argument you’re trying to make, I’ve heard it all my life, but the only way it can be even remotely considered as valid; is if you start from the position that all slavery was evil, and some took it to such levels of depravity that others looked relatively mild by comparison in their crime. But all are still guilty of being slavers in the old south, all thought it was fine to own someone else, and this is still an obscenity.

 

[EWWYOURFACE]

I was doing online research and it seems that the confederate flag is still being used. This is extremely offensive seeing that I am part Mexican besides being an Italian, being a gay democrat, and that i grew up with many african-american friends and even dated one.

Alot of southerners claim it as part of "Southern Culture" and "Southern Pride." Bullshit. So we can hang swastikas and say its GERMAN PRIDE? People find loopholes for anything.

The state of Mississippi still has the confederate symbol as part of their flag.

Any views on this subject? It may be freedom of speech, but the constitution also states you can NOT scream fire in a crowded theater. Meaning some people might argue your free speech if you were to visit a Jewish/Gay Neighborhood and wave a swastika around.. and you WILL offend people of different cultural and racial backgrounds waving a confederate flag. Anyone can say its southern culture.. it doesn't change what it REALLY is and HOW IT BECAME!

Thats just stupid. We beat the south, them hillbilly twats!

 

[TX-Beau]

Thats just stupid. We beat the south, them hillbilly twats!

Hillbilly Twats? Perhaps.

but only to braying, rude, Yankee assholes.

(Grin)

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

Thats just stupid. We beat the south, them hillbilly twats!

not all southerners are hillbillies and white trash.. there is good and bad in everyone.. its just when it comes to racist shit like this and when people sugar-coat history.

 

[EWWYOURFACE]

Hillbilly Twats? Perhaps.

but only to braying, rude, Yankee assholes.

(Grin)

Were so mean because we walk around with snow in our shoes =/

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

Were so mean because we walk around with snow in our shoes =/

That has nothing to do with it omg. I have nothing against the south everyone says I do... its THIS subject that I'm against!

 

[Kulindahr]

not all southerners are hillbillies and white trash.. there is good and bad in everyone.. its just when it comes to racist shit like this and when people sugar-coat history.

I haven't seen anyone trying to "sugarcoat history". I have seen you and others trying to paint it all with tar, though, and some people pointing out that it wasn't all tar.
Heck, you even admitted once or twice that it wasn't all tar!

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

I haven't seen anyone trying to "sugarcoat history". I have seen you and others trying to paint it all with tar, though, and some people pointing out that it wasn't all tar.
Heck, you even admitted once or twice that it wasn't all tar!

The south relied on slavery/free labor. Slavery was banned BEFORE the civil war by the North. The South didn't listen. Their economy SOARED with free labor. Imagine if all American companies today could get free labor... the economy would boom! But, that's not moral. That's why we have liberals to protect the rights of all Americans.

Let's take this example....

A child gets beaten by his parents. They are alcoholics and smoke weed, snort cocaine, shoot up heroin, on a regular basis. Anyway the parents take the kid to an amusement park like six flags or Disney world twice (mainly for themselves).. when he's 9.. and when hes 12. They get him a Nintendo64 in 1997 to keep him out of their hair. They get nice clothes for themselves but get the kid some shitty stuff on clearance. The kid appreciates it, because its all he knows. The father occasionally molests the son as a child. He takes him camping at 13 but molests him in the tent.

This child is like a person today defending this history of the confederacy and it's naval jack.

DCFS removes the child... the child defends his parents and pleads to go back home. WHy do you think that is?
You CAN'T ignore those aweful things the parents have done. But he uses the arguement that they took him on family vacations, they got him things he needed.. (shitty clothes that are torn), a game system to make him happy, etc.

Now that Kid is going to defend his family because its what he KNOWS and its where he CAME FROM! But we all know those parents didn't deserve to be parents. They should never get their kid back. But this kid grows up in a new world and will keep a picture of his parents with him... on his dresser when he gets married.. because he loves them. All those bad things.. never happened.. to HIM. He sugar coats his history to paint the picture of a loving family.


NOW. Someone who loves living in the south should be proud. There are great historical facts about the southern states and many famous intelligent people have come from there. I don't hate the south. But when you wave that flag.. it shows you have no proper education on the subject. A kid flies the flag because his parents are proud of it.. and its harmless. But when you go back... People who flew the flag decades ago and shouted SOUTHERN PRIDE.. wasn't southern pride.. it was a hidden message. After the war, people were upset about the south being destroyed from the war, and loosing the free labor which their economy relied heavily on. Alot of blacks were stupid because white people made them like that. It took many generations for some blacks to finally break that cycle and believe me MANY whites were TERRIFIED of blacks moving up in society. If a black man became successful and rich he could get murdered by the Klan and ex confederate soldiers. Why do you think the JIM crow laws were in the south? I know racism was in the north too. I don't deny that. And its anywhere today but has gotten better. Now we have Obama as president which many never thought would happen. GREAT changes have happened... and I'm proud to be American. But when you wave that flag.. you are bringing up NASTY wounds in our past which should be forgotten and not twisted around. MANY people today have racial issues. And using the excuse HERITAGE is a shield for not being accused of being racist AND a bigot.

DO you think the south today will say "OH YEAH we were wrong, what we did was immoral... it was just evil of us... shame on us!" Or do you think they will get defensive and sugar coat the facts to make it look like a different story? The conservatives to it today with the gay issue.

 

[Kulindahr]

NOW. Someone who loves living in the south should be proud. There are great historical facts about the southern states and many famous intelligent people have come from there. I don't hate the south. But when you wave that flag.. it shows you have no proper education on the subject. A kid flies the flag because his parents are proud of it.. and its harmless. But when you go back... People who flew the flag decades ago and shouted SOUTHERN PRIDE.. wasn't southern pride.. it was a hidden message.,....
But when you wave that flag.. you are bringing up NASTY wounds in our past which should be forgotten and not twisted around. MANY people today have racial issues. And using the excuse HERITAGE is a shield for not being accused of being racist AND a bigot.

We've been through this before, and you're wrong. Basically you're saying that everyone has to accept that the flag means what you say it means -- but to get that meaning, you have to edit history.

The black guy I told about earlier was far from ignorant; he could recite Civil War campaigns battle by battle, and debate the merits of slavery hours on end. But he also knew a lot more about history than you do, such as the fact that blacks in the South could be free, and could own property, and were proud of the states they lived in -- and when war came, they fought for their states, not because they were ignorant, but because they had a loyalty to their homes.

The mere fact that an educated black today can be proud of that Confederate battle flag refutes your point all by itself; nothing more is needed. That many people cling to it out of racism is irrelevant, because that's not the only thing it means.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

We've been through this before, and you're wrong. Basically you're saying that everyone has to accept that the flag means what you say it means -- but to get that meaning, you have to edit history.

The black guy I told about earlier was far from ignorant; he could recite Civil War campaigns battle by battle, and debate the merits of slavery hours on end. But he also knew a lot more about history than you do, such as the fact that blacks in the South could be free, and could own property, and were proud of the states they lived in -- and when war came, they fought for their states, not because they were ignorant, but because they had a loyalty to their homes.

The mere fact that an educated black today can be proud of that Confederate battle flag refutes your point all by itself; nothing more is needed. That many people cling to it out of racism is irrelevant, because that's not the only thing it means.

If a black man is proud of such a flag.. he's misinformed.

I never said everyone had to accept what I say it means. I'm telling everyone to use common sense. Hon A black man in history has joined the Ku Klux Klan. Jews have joined the neo-nazi party. What's your point? Gay men belong to the Conservative Republican party.

I have said this before. The majority of people know true history. There are people who are proud of such a flag and haven't been informed. To them its a hertigage symbol. But a black man's heritage goes back to his African roots. Mine goes back to Italy and Mexico. But the nation I live in is THE USA. I will display the American flag. Why would a black man display the confederate flag knowing hes never lived in a historical moment that should be let go of?

Remember what I said..

A child gets beaten by his parents. They are alcoholics and smoke weed, snort cocaine, shoot up heroin, on a regular basis. Anyway the parents take the kid to an amusement park like six flags or Disney world twice (mainly for themselves).. when he's 9.. and when hes 12. They get him a Nintendo64 in 1997 to keep him out of their hair. They get nice clothes for themselves but get the kid some shitty stuff on clearance. The kid appreciates it, because its all he knows. The father occasionally molests the son as a child. He takes him camping at 13 but molests him in the tent.

This child is like a person today defending this history of the confederacy and it's naval jack.

DCFS removes the child... the child defends his parents and pleads to go back home. WHy do you think that is?
You CAN'T ignore those aweful things the parents have done. But he uses the arguement that they took him on family vacations, they got him things he needed.. (shitty clothes that are torn), a game system to make him happy, etc.

Now that Kid is going to defend his family because its what he KNOWS and its where he CAME FROM! But we all know those parents didn't deserve to be parents. They should never get their kid back. But this kid grows up in a new world and will keep a picture of his parents with him... on his dresser when he gets married.. because he loves them. All those bad things.. never happened.. to HIM. He sugar coats his history to paint the picture of a loving family.


DO you think the south today will say "OH YEAH we were wrong, what we did was immoral... it was just evil of us... shame on us!" Or do you think they will get defensive and sugar coat the facts to make it look like a different story? The conservatives to it today with the gay issue.

 

[Kulindahr]

If a black man is proud of such a flag.. he's misinformed.

I never said everyone had to accept what I say it means. I'm telling everyone to use common sense. Hon A black man in history has joined the Ku Klux Klan. Jews have joined the neo-nazi party. What's your point? Gay men belong to the Conservative Republican party.

My point is that you are being narrow-minded, and stubbornly refusing to see anyone else's point of view.

To the black guy I posted about earlier, the Confederate battle flag is a source of pride. And why shouldn't it be? Under it, his ancestor fought alongside whites as equals -- while in the North, blacks were in segregated units. That ancestor fought for his home, for his family, and he's proud of that.

The situations you list are parallel at all: the Klan wants to oppress all non-whites -- the South didn't. The Nazis wanted to exterminate all Jews -- the South never wanted to exterminate blacks. And gay men belong to the Republican party because in their view, it supports more of the things they believe in than do the Democrat.

You plainly didn't read my post well -- I explained that my black college acquaintance was hardly misinformed; he knew more about the subject than you do. Did you know that free blacks could, and did, own their own land? That they could, and did, get university educations?

And did you know that a significant root of ill treatment of blacks in the South was the political movement in the North to get slavery banned?

The issue is more complex than you admit, and my black acquaintance understood that. He knew that a symbol can mean different things to different people -- such as the swastika, which has been used by Native Americans, Hindus, Bhuddists, the Celts... and even as a cattle brand in the old west.

"Common sense" doesn't impose a single view of a subject on everyone; instead, it says "Live and let live". It allows that an item may mean different things to different people. But by your view....

Finland should remove the swastika from its presidential standard, and from its Air Force colors; the Jains should abandon it as a holy symbol; the Japanese should stop using it as a symbol of strength and intelligence....


To the black guy I've spoken of, the Confederate battle flag means his family roots, defending their home, standing up alongside others as free men -- because that's his history that goes with it. Just because others say it's evil doesn't make it so.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

My point is that you are being narrow-minded, and stubbornly refusing to see anyone else's point of view.

To the black guy I posted about earlier, the Confederate battle flag is a source of pride. And why shouldn't it be? Under it, his ancestor fought alongside whites as equals -- while in the North, blacks were in segregated units. That ancestor fought for his home, for his family, and he's proud of that.

To the black guy I've spoken of, the Confederate battle flag means his family roots, defending their home, standing up alongside others as free men -- because that's his history that goes with it. Just because others say it's evil doesn't make it so.

Most slaves were eager to leave the plantations in the south. I know that many blacks fought alongside white people in the south. Many blacks weren't that smart.. and it was easier to paint a different picture to the slaves. The south did not want to lose.. so they let their slaves fight with them. Did you know most slaves rebelled and fought for the north? You are saying that slaves were happy to protect their homes. Then why was it common for some whites to be slave catchers? Why did slaves get beatings and sometimes sold away from their families? Why did many slaves try to escape to the north? You are trying to sugar coat the situation and the history behind this symbol.

With all do respect you must be dense if you ignore the facts of slavery in American history. SOME slaves did get along with their owners. The light skinned blacks seemed to be favored more. They were treated reasonably well. But this was very seldom! Stop trying to take a small portion of the black population back then to make it look like another story.

It's like a kid who wants his ears Pierced and he tells his parents.. well all the kids in school are doing it. In reality... 5 out of 50 have done it. Most of them aren't.

If a white family owned a slave and treated him/her like a family pet... does that mean its HUMANE? They don't know a better life where they could have their own home or have better opportunities. So when soldiers from the North come to fight the rebels.. I can see why someone like that would stand up and defend ALL THAT THEY KNOW because they DON'T know the other possibilities they could have if they were free, educated, and a chance to work for pay. In some instances blacks fought for the south in those terms. Understandable. In other terms... the slave owners told blacks on the plantations that the North would come and kill them... or would twist the truth. But however the MAJORITY of slaves LEFT the south.. escaped.. (or tried to.. and got killed).

You are trying to sugar coat history by saying all black slaves loved the south and their ways of lives working hard for the ones they loved. Bullshit.

I can see how for some the flag is a symbol of positiveness. But The reason why its condemned by most is because people will forget what REALLY happened... how the MAJORITY of blacks were mistreated..and reasons for war.

The war is over. Its time to put it away and keep it for historical purposes only. That's like flying the first American flag on the back of my car.... No need to. We have 50 stars now.

 

[Kulindahr]

^

I know all that, he knew all that -- and he still hung the battle flag with pride.

You're trying to snowball facts with one narrow view. You're ignoring the fact that there were thousands of black property owners, and many thousands more free blacks who weren't slaves at all -- they were "free, educated, and [had] a chance to work for pay".

They have a right to be proud of their history, and to be proud of their ancestors fighting for what was theirs -- and to display with pride the battle flag under which those ancestors fought.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

^

I know all that, he knew all that -- and he still hung the battle flag with pride.

You're trying to snowball facts with one narrow view. You're ignoring the fact that there were thousands of black property owners, and many thousands more free blacks who weren't slaves at all -- they were "free, educated, and [had] a chance to work for pay".

They have a right to be proud of their history, and to be proud of their ancestors fighting for what was theirs -- and to display with pride the battle flag under which those ancestors fought.

I DO know there were free black Americans who had their own plantations and those who had other occupations. Many who left the south and became independent. One of them started issuing pamphlets telling all southern slaves to rebel. The south hated him and had him killed. The south WAS living from a racist view. If they weren't racist... why weren't there any WHITE slaves? Why all black ones?

And if that were my ancestors that fought for that.. I wouldn't be proud of it. I would simply think they didn't know what they were really fighting for.. since I can look back with hindsight. Just because someone fights for something.. you gotta be proud of it?

 

[Kulindahr]

I DO know there were free black Americans who had their own plantations and those who had other occupations. Many who left the south and became independent. One of them started issuing pamphlets telling all southern slaves to rebel. The south hated him and had him killed. The south WAS living from a racist view. If they weren't racist... why weren't there any WHITE slaves? Why all black ones?

And if that were my ancestors that fought for that.. I wouldn't be proud of it. I would simply think they didn't know what they were really fighting for.. since I can look back with hindsight. Just because someone fights for something.. you gotta be proud of it?

The north was racist as well, as evidenced by the fact that blacks were put in their own units, not mixed with whites, in the army.

In the south, my acquaintance's ancestors fought as equals alongside whites. Why can't you see that that's something to be proud of? or, for that matter, that he was fighting for his home is something to be proud of?

It's pretty arrogant to look back and say you know more than the people who were there. His ancestors lived where there were slaves, where blacks were so much property -- and you think they weren't aware of that? you think they didn't know that keeping the South alive may have meant continuing that?
And "may" is the right word: Jefferson Davis ordered that any black who fought for the south would be free, an executive order that would have paved the way for an end to slavery altogether. Why did he do that? Yes, partly because the south was desperate for men, but also because blacks had earned it: they'd proven themselves in battle.

And that's also something to be proud of -- that blacks earned their equality.

Remember the swastika: to some it's a sign of evil, but to others it's a holy symbol, or to others a symbol of strength and intelligence. Just looking at it, you can't tell what it means, because it depends on the person.
The same is true of the southern battle flag.

 

[bankside]

Remember the swastika: to some it's a sign of evil, but to others it's a holy symbol, or to others a symbol of strength and intelligence. Just looking at it, you can't tell what it means, because it depends on the person.
The same is true of the southern battle flag.

...because symbols have no intrinsic associations of which we need be mindful. For instance, Mary. To some, the mother of god. To others, the mother of "OMG. More. More. Faster. Oh yeah! MORE." Who can say, just by looking?

http://www.divine-interventions.com/mary.html

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

...because symbols have no intrinsic associations of which we need be mindful. For instance, Mary. To some, the mother of god. To others, the mother of "OMG. More. More. Faster. Oh yeah! MORE." Who can say, just by looking?

http://www.divine-interventions.com/mary.html

thank you!!!!!!