Pastor Rick Warren's son kills himself.

[JayHawk]

They should start by indicting gun owners for manslaughter when their weapons are used in suicides. Unrestricted access should be criminal.

 

[CowboyBob]

They should start by indicting gun owners for manslaughter when their weapons are used in suicides. Unrestricted access should be criminal.

Exactly. If you want to own a weapon you have to be responsible for it and the damage it causes.

 

[chance1]

They should start by indicting gun owners for manslaughter when their weapons are used in suicides. Unrestricted access should be criminal.

that's a great idea

not really

 

[TX-Beau]

I don't necessarily disagree with you but we do have reckless endangerment for a reason.

 

[chance1]

They should start by indicting gun owners for manslaughter when their weapons are used in suicides. Unrestricted access should be criminal.

that seems very black and white no ?

and the world is for the most part ....... gray

 

[eastofeden]

Much like public opinion shifting on gay marriage and drowning out the hate

I see some of that here - people showing compassion and empathy rather than proving they have none

And it reads and feels good

Imagine burying your son

That's not an us and them thing

Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts on the subject....even you. I think the only problem here is when you tell someone else how they should feel about Rick Warren. He helped craft the idea in Uganda that led to legislation that called for the death penalty for gay people. That is unforgivable and evil. If his son was gay he definitely helped him to his grave.

I personally respect the grieving process and extend that to anyone....almost every friend I had died as well as most of my family...so death has had a profound effect on me as an individual....but that doesn't mean anyone else needs to feel like I do nor does that make my response any more or less valid than anyone elses. There is certainly room for rage against that vile man.

 

[chance1]

Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts on the subject....even you. I think the only problem here is when you tell someone else how they should feel about Rick Warren. He helped craft the idea in Uganda that led to legislation that called for the death penalty for gay people. That is unforgivable and evil. If his son was gay he definitely helped him to his grave.

I personally respect the grieving process and extend that to anyone....almost every friend I had died as well as most of my family...so death has had a profound effect on me as an individual....but that doesn't mean anyone else needs to feel like I do nor does that make my response any more or less valid than anyone elses. There is certainly room for rage against that vile man.

yep - you're right - 100%

i don't think everyone should grieve for him - never said they have to or even should - it's good when they do

i explained in my response to centex above - read it please

rareboy and others comments are heinous - over the top hate - and that sucks

period

 

[Rolyo85]

Ah, "over the top hate". As usual, the arbiter of how much is "just under the top" and how much is over it, has spoken and given his judgment. Sad little king on a sad little hill.

I can't imagine burying my son. It would devastate me, probably forever. And I can't imagine the despair that would drive a young man - gay or not, parent's fault or not - to take his own life. It chills me to the bone.

I can imagine Rick Warren burying his son though. And whatever I feel for the son, all I feel for Warren is a sense of justice. Sometimes you do reap what you saw.

 

[Ninja108]

The problem is many parents have had to bury their LGBT children because of people like Rick Warren. Sad to say but human nature is simply going to be not many people are going to feel bad for a man who has cuased so much misery to others.

 

[altlover85]

RIP Matthew Warren

 

[eastofeden]

rareboy and others comments are heinous - over the top hate - and that sucks

period

I disagree. I read though the entire thread again and the single thing that I personally find hateful and over the top is this little gem:

"He is a very sensible, compassionate man."

 

[FuryOfFirestorm]

Much like public opinion shifting on gay marriage and drowning out the hate

I see some of that here - people showing compassion and empathy rather than proving they have none

And it reads and feels good

Imagine burying your son

That's not an us and them thing

Even though this is going to go in one ear and out the other, let me break this down for you:

Do I feel sorry that Rick's son killed himself? Yes.

Am I glad that he killed himself? No.

Did I think Rick deserved to see his son die? No.

Do I think he helped contribute to his son's suicide? Yes.

Is Pastor Rick a homophobic asshole? Fuck yes.

Do I feel sorry or pity for him. Hell no.

Mr. Warren has continually perpetrated the mentality that "homosexuals are abominations" that has led to the suicides of the hundreds if not thousands of gays sons and daughters. Not to mention the many homosexuals in Uganda that are being mercilessly slaughtered in the name of the religious dogma he has helped spread there and has been "justified" by the "Kills The Gays" bill he sponsored.

Rick Warren is currently feeling just a fraction of the pain and agony he has wrought, and he is fully complicit for his sins. Feeling sorry for him is like feeling sorry for Saddam Hussein when his sons died. Don't get on the cross just because I pointed this out, [Text: Removed].

 

[The Flash]

You, sir, and your postings are one of the reasons I have returned to this site. I hope that doesn't frighten you too much.

 

[Kulindahr]

IMHO, fundamentalist Christianity is a mental illness.

Fundamentalism of any kind is a mental illness.

Using "iron age gods" in the same sentence with Rick Warren is doing them an injustice.

Unless they're just pieces of iron age iron -- then it's an interesting comparison.

 

[Kulindahr]

I can understand the vehemence towards Rick Warren like any other decent human being; the things he supports are utter abominations. However, he is still a father, and he his dealing with grief along with his family. Suicide is never a pleasant reality, especially when it happens under your own roof. I may have nothing nice to say about the man, but I will say that I am sorry for the loss of his son.

Consoling grief that rests on a lie is not healing, but contributing to the lie. Acknowledging his grief does not require affirming his abominable beliefs and attitudes which quite likely contributed to his son's death. It is the moment in the midst of this pain at which he is most instructable, and the truth must be stated clearly: as the prophet Nathan told King David, "You are the man!" . . . i.e., you are the killer.

 

[Kulindahr]

Christianity makes no sense.

It's based on a virgin births and resurrections. A God who is not one but three. His son rose from the dead, in other words he's a zombie. You're supposed to talk to this zombie and thank him for everything you and the rest of mankind put on your table. A God who knocked up someone else's wife but didn't actually fuck her. The son spoke radical ideas for the time to so the establishment had him killed. Take care of the poor, greed is bad. Give up your wealth. Peace. Radical ideas then and now. Present day followers wouldn't listen to him. They would kill him now too. Besides, he was a Jew. A true follower of this zombie doesn't like Jews.

This ancient religion's leaders promise you paradise in another life but do not question what they say. It's power over the masses and political struggle. They read a book of morality plays and their followers take it as a historical document.

This two thousand year old religion isn't necessary anymore.

That makes prefect sense.

[Text: Removed]

As far as "this two thousand year old religion", at the rate we're going it will be another two thousand before society catches up with it.

 

[Kulindahr]

Imagine burying your son

That's not an us and them thing

Imagine burying your son, to whose suicide you contributed, and being encouraged to hold onto your lies so you can go on and cause other people to have to bury their sons.

Imagine being the friend of someone's son that you had to bury because that friend's family was too caught up in the teachings of Pastor Rick Warren's message to his followers.

Not the message of Christ, or the Bible, but Rick Warren's message of "Christ's Love."

I think that's what a lot of guys who are posting that they're upset about, that or you either don't or choose to get.

Yes. By focusing on Warren's (probable) contribution to driving his son to suicide, I merely do what the Bible he clings to does: brings a demand for truth in moments of pain. Compassion without truth is merely encouragement to continue the evil.

a young man committed suicide - who the father is is irrelevant

No, it isn't. Rev. Warren fits at least two models of the sorts of parents who heavily contribute to their children's suicides. Since he is a leader who passes on those same attitudes to millions, examining his role and calling him to account are exactly what is relevant here.

This is really no different than if a black U. S. senator voted for a bill that required black children to always fall in behind their white peers, never to walk ahead, and shortly thereafter he went home to find that his son had killed himself. Even you would denounce the law, but it isn't the law that would be the evil; the evil lies in the heart of a man that would vote for such a thing. And it would be deceitful to claim that the law drove the son to suicide, instead of laying the blame squarely at the feet of a father who taught his son that he was second-class, less than perfect, not as good as others.

other dead hearts focused on warren the dad

the good news is that enough people - not you - focused on what's important - and it's not rick warren here

THis is a current events and politics forum. The important element here is how this event is related to our country and world. Focusing on the dad is exactly what we should do -- the son is gone, and if we are to prevent other sons from doing the same, the bigotry of the father has to be denounced. That's what's important here, though not so much Rick Warren himself as him as a figure, an icon, standing for millions of parents who are demanding and insensitive.

empathy or sympathy for rick warren ? that's up to you

using this thread as a battering ram ?

Sympathy bestowed on a participant in driving someone to suicide is poison, not just to those who see it and feel (rightly) sickened. but to the person himself.

It's empathy that drives the "battering ram", though it would be better to communicate it to Warren himself. As someone who has lost a fair number of friends to suicide, and survived his own attempt when the doctors couldn't figure out how/why, and has intervened to turn someone away from suicide, I know that the most important thing at such a time is to cut deep and assault the attitudes that contribute to the suicide. "Empathy" that ignores the deeper pathos -- the disease, the suffering -- and merel;y moves to provide emotional support isn't empathy at all, it's a cheap-ass way to make one's own self feel righteous.*




*and that's one way people help contribute to suicide: they act in ways to make themselves feel better, without doing anything to actually address the situation; thus you over and over hear people say, "I would have helped, if I'd known" -- something survivors of suicide attempts know to be a self-serving lie.

 

[Kulindahr]

They should start by indicting gun owners for manslaughter when their weapons are used in suicides. Unrestricted access should be criminal.

No. But Congress should use their Art 1 Sec 8 authority over the militia to require safe storage standards, including special requirements for households with mentally ill people judged a potential risk to themselves. The crime here would be something like "negligence of storage standards, leading to loss of innocent life".

Yeah, that's kind of the same as manslaughter. But people aren't going to take their firearms seriously until the responsibility for doing so is made obnoxiously clear.

 

[Kulindahr]

I disagree. I read though the entire thread again and the single thing that I personally find hateful and over the top is this little gem:

"He is a very sensible, compassionate man."

In a way, I can go with that.

The thing is, from his record in actually dealing with people, he is a kind and sensible man. The problem is that he has a blind spot caused by hate (or self-righteousness, or both) that not merely impairs his compassion in that area but turns it into something like emotional assault.

So, he's a sensible, compassionate man -- with a blind spot big enough to drive an armored division of hate through.



And BTW, if I hated Rick Warren, I wouldn't bother thinking about this and stating some truth -- I'd just say he's a piece of trash who should die and leave the rest of us in peace, and let it go at that. But he's impressive enough in many ways, and an important enough figure, that he deserves to have someone try to bring him to repentance so he can learn and grow.

Though if I were addressing him directly, I wouldn't make statements of my conclusions, I'd use questions to draw him to those conclusions.

 

[Jack Springer]

It's funny how some of the same arguments used against Christianity here are the same type of arguments used against gay people on other sites.