Proposition 8 Has Officially Passed

[Spensed]

Of course they're responsible for their votes, and for what they believe, which led to how they voted. But nobody changes their vote or beliefs without having a reason to do so. On this issue that's our responsibility to deal with. Gays had a prime opportunity with Obama having said he opposed Prop 8, being a black candidate attracting a huge black constituency to the voting booth, and knowing blacks planned to vote in support of Prop 8. They were so eager to get Obama elected, they were more open than probably they ever will be to listen to a candidate like Obama and follow his lead. Opportunity doesn't get more direct than that! And gays pissed it away. Take responsibility for it. It's not the fault of blacks who merely voted the way they believed, it's the fault of gays who didn't grab the chance to force Obama to influence those beliefs and those votes.

You're time wasting, just repeating what you've said before without addressing the reasons why it would be stupid and counterproductive for Obama to do as you say.

 

[NickCole]

^^ It's not up to you to decide if I'm wasting my time.

I've seen this "blame the blacks" sentiment elsewhere on the Internet and among gays and I think it's shirking our own responsibility and destructive. And I believe making that point as often as I have time for is useful.

Especially when reports like this are surfacing:

Geoffrey, a student at UCLA and regular Rod 2.0 reader, joined the massive protest outside the Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Westwood. Geoffrey was called the n-word at least twice.

It was like being at a klan rally except the klansmen were wearing Abercrombie polos and Birkenstocks. YOU NIGGER, one man shouted at men. If your people want to call me a FAGGOT, I will call you a nigger. Someone else said same thing to me on the next block near the temple...me and my friend were walking, he is also gay but Korean, and a young WeHo clone said after last night the niggers better not come to West Hollywood if they knew what was BEST for them.

http://rodonline.typepad.com/rodonline/2008/11/n-word-and-raci.html
​

 

[chance1]

blacks clearly do not support gay rights much less gay marriage

is what it is

the encouraging part is that older people are against gay marriage

that younger people support gay marriage

older people will die off eventually

and the younger people will become the older people

and there will be new younger people

just need some time

 

[NickCole]

^^ Maybe you haven't noticed, Chance, but a lot of younger people are African American and do not support gay marriage.

When it comes to fighting prejudices and discrimination, history teaches that waiting for people to die off is not a good strategy.

A better one is building a unified coalition and utilizing every opportunity and power you have.

 

[chance1]

^^ Maybe you haven't noticed, Chance, but a lot of younger people are African American and do not support gay marriage.

When it comes to fighting prejudices and discrimination, history teaches that waiting for people to die off is not a good strategy.

A better one is building a unified coalition and utilizing every opportunity and power you have.

did not know that nick

its ironic to me that blacks r so conservative when it comes to gay anything - with extreme religious views

so easy to attack the religious right for their views

but attacking blacks is not so easy politically

so not sure what u can do there

 

[NickCole]

Interesting find, NickCole. This quote is right, the problem lies entirely in California:

No the problem does not rest entirely in California.

Florida, Arkansas and Arizona also passed anti same sex marriage initiatives this week. And before them many other states did.

If gays don't unify and build a stronger coalition on all levels, local, state and national, we are failing to utilize our power and we will not prevail. And failing to insist Obama address this discriminatory trend when it was happening and he had the ear of African Americans, who are, as Democrats and as victims of discrimination themselves, the most persuadable, was a squandered opportunity.

It's nothing less than stupid that gays protest outside of Mormon churches when there isn't a chance in hell Mormons will ever oppose initiatives like Prop 8, but they didn't protest for Obama's help when he could have given it.

 

[Spensed]

^^ It's not up to you to decide if I'm wasting my time.

You're repeating your criticism of Obama on Prop 8 without dealing with the points that discredit that criticism.

 

[NickCole]

did not know that nick

its ironic to me that blacks r so conservative when it comes to gay anything - with extreme religious views

so easy to attack the religious right for their views

but attacking blacks is not so easy politically

so not sure what u can do there

It's a complicated problem.

But the first thing that needs to be understood if we seriously want to address Democratic blacks voting against gay rights is that it is not based in religion the way it is for, say, white Mormons. That's just a convenient excuse. It's cultural and is connected to issues in that community concerning the black male. I first became aware of this in the 1980s when I worked with GMHC and other AIDS Projects.

Conservative Christians who normally have nothing to do with Democratic blacks, buddying up with them against us further complicates it.

These complicated issues are the reason Obama was in a unique position the past couple of weeks to address Democratic blacks and urge them to stand with us because we were standing with them, while Conservative Christians did not stand with them to elect a black President.

 

[chance1]

^obama IMO weighed this

and judged that the downside was greater than the upside

that he would still get the gay vote so very little upside there

whereas he might upset some moderates where he was gaining with

 

[Centexfarmer]

did not know that nick

its ironic to me that blacks r so conservative when it comes to gay anything - with extreme religious views

so easy to attack the religious right for their views

but attacking blacks is not so easy politically

so not sure what u can do there

Try being a long-time Delegate to the Texas Democratic Party, who also happens to be gay.

On any resolution that came before the Senatorial District, or the State Convention that pertained to anything having to do with "Gay Equality," nine times out of ten there was usually an African-American delegate that was strongly opposed.

I never quite understood that myself.

I understand that many African-Americans are offended when our fight for equality is equated with their struggle for their Civil Rights.

When I've pointed out that we've been persecuted, lynched, and oppressed for our cause, they claim that it's not the same.

One of my State Representatives is an African-American, and a Democrat, and a woman, and a friend of my family's, and though she supports our cause, she says that we can't be "discriminated" against because our "sexuality, and preference isn't as obvious" as the color of her skin.

However, I've heard this song and dance from many Democrats for YEARS; "We can't help you unless we get elected."

So, as a Democrat I've worked to get them elected.

The result?

If we're lucky, they might launch a defense against any Republican measure aimed against us.

And they argue, "But hey, at least it's something."

I'm hurt and a little disappointed that this battle out in California has taken on a racist tone.

The voters of Texas amended our State Constitution to specifically define "marriage" as being between one man, and one woman, back on 2006 because two Democrats, one in the Texas House, and one in the Senate paved the way for the Republicans to put it before the voters.

The measure passed by a nearly 3 to 1 margin.

Despite Equality Texas having built a coalition of Churches, and Religious leaders who advocated against it.

The Texas Democratic Party wasn't a part of that coalition. In fact they were told by Howard Dean to "stay out of it."

It may seem "ironic" on the surface, but there's apparently more there than meets the eye.

 

[NickCole]

^obama IMO weighed this

and judged that the downside was greater than the upside

that he would still get the gay vote so very little upside there

whereas he might upset some moderates where he was gaining with

No question about that (except maybe the moderates).

I don't blame Obama, he did what was politically expedient, as he should. We didn't insist he give us something in return for our vote so he didn't. Why should he take an unnecessary risk.

It's up to gays to take advantage of our opportunities, just like it's up to blacks to take advantage of their opportunities.

I don't believe Obama would have lost the election if he'd encouraged blacks to vote no on Prop 8. He already had taken that position, all he would have been doing is making a direct appeal right before the election when he was ahead but his victory was still in doubt and he (and blacks who wanted him to win so much) needed all the votes they could count on. But gays didn't even ask him to stand up for us in exchange for our support, much less insist on it. A huge missed opportunity that won't come around again.

 

[Centexfarmer]

No question about that (except maybe the moderates).

I don't blame Obama, he did what was politically expedient, as he should. We didn't insist he give us something in return for our vote so he didn't. Why should he take an unnecessary risk.

It's up to gays to take advantage of our opportunities, just like it's up to blacks to take advantage of their opportunities.

I don't believe Obama would have lost the election if he'd encouraged blacks to vote no on Prop 8. He already had taken that position, all he would have been doing is making a direct appeal right before the election when he was ahead but his victory was still in doubt and he (and blacks who wanted him to win so much) needed all the votes they could count on. But gays didn't even ask him to stand up for us in exchange for our support, much less insist on it. A huge missed opportunity that won't come around again.

Well the problem with that Nick, as is evidenced by opinion found throughout this website, is that we're not even unified ourselves on this cause.

I think part of the problem with so many out in California is that that they thought that they had right, fairness, and justice on their side, and that Obama's "help" wasn't necessary.

 

[NickCole]

Well the problem with that Nick, as is evidenced by opinion found throughout this website, is that we're not even unified ourselves on this cause.

No, the problem is that even those who are unified in supporting same sex marriage didn't use the most potent power we've had in years and will have for years to come.

If Obama hadn't been the first viable black candidate or if black Democrats weren't a large enough group to turn the tide on Prop 8, or if Christian Conservatives who were encouraging blacks to vote yes on Prop 8 had been supporting Obama, it'd be a different story. But those particulars made this a unique opportunity for gays and they tossed it away like it's something that'll come along again. WE were the friends of blacks on November 4 and yet they voted against us; Christian conservatives were the enemy of blacks on November 4 and yet they voted with them. That's the fault of gays who supported Obama and asked for nothing in return.

I think part of the problem with so many out in California is that that they thought that they had right, fairness, and justice on their side, and that Obama's "help" wasn't necessary.

One problem, my friend, is a new generation of gays who've had it very easy and think chances like that come along all the time. (And some older gays with memory loss or who weren't a part of earlier battles.) They don't understand how vulnerable our rights are or how hard the fight is to achieve them. Gays have never won our rights because we have right, fairness and justice on our side; we've won our rights because we fought hard for them. And a big part of that is recognizing your opportunities and using them.

And BTW, I don't mean to imply that failing to insist Obama stand with them was the only problem; that's just the opportunity that would have been the easiest and most obvious to utilize.

 

[Spensed]

I don't believe Obama would have lost the election if he'd encouraged blacks to vote no on Prop 8. He already had taken that position, all he would have been doing is making a direct appeal right before the election when he was ahead but his victory was still in doubt and he (and blacks who wanted him to win so much) needed all the votes they could count on. But gays didn't even ask him to stand up for us in exchange for our support, much less insist on it. A huge missed opportunity that won't come around again.

Obviously, that's what you believe as someone who only finds fault with Obama. Whatever he did, you were never going to be happy with it.

But intervening in a state's gay rights proposition in the closing weeks of a Presidential campaign would been used as rallying call to religious crazies and other homophobes in the same way that the gay issue was used to get voters out in the previous election.

That problem would have been amplied by the Fox News swiftboating team and folk like you to attack Obama for intefering with states' rights or whatever you could dream up.

Finally, there's nothing to show that Obama's request to his black followers would, as I've said before, have had any more effect than Hillary's request to you, as one of her supporters, to support Obama.

So, all those three points stand unrebutted.

Not intervening on Prop 8 beyond what he did was a good judgment call on Obama's part and all your carping about it isn't going to change that.

 

[NickCole]

but let's keep in mind the irrational thinking like this:

Jeffrey Jackson of Lynwood said he struggled with how he would vote on Proposition 8. On the one hand, as a black man casting his ballot for Obama, he said he had a deep and personal reverence for civil rights. On the other, he is a Pentecostal Christian.

In the end, it was that religious faith that guided his decision. "It's straight biblical," said Jackson, 46. "It's just not right."
​

And the article mentions they somehow made the argument about ... children?

Exactly. He struggled with how to vote and the Christian right used their opportunity to nudge blacks on their side while gays failed to use our opportunity.

The Christian right had a very well organized campaign in CA to get blacks and Hispanics on their side against us -- but the Christian right was not ever going to vote for Obama. Gays were voting for him and supposedly had Barack Obama on our side but gays didn't ask Obama to broadcast that shared connection with blacks.

 

[Kulindahr]

There's no evidence that taking a stand against discrimination, Prop 8, is any more risky with the evangelical crowd than taking a stand for a woman's right to have an abortion.

The problem would have been the combination of the two issues. Assume a portion of evangelicals willing to tolerate Obama's position on abortion: that's an uneasy position to take in that crowd, and adding an outspoken tolerance for, or even approval of, gays, and the load is too much -- you lose those voters.

Another difference is that according to some fundamentalist-type factions, tolerating abortion is a Bad Thing, but toleration of homosexuality will Destroy The Nation, by bringing down God's judgment.

No the problem does not rest entirely in California.

Florida, Arkansas and Arizona also passed anti same sex marriage initiatives this week. And before them many other states did.

If gays don't unify and build a stronger coalition on all levels, local, state and national, we are failing to utilize our power and we will not prevail. And failing to insist Obama address this discriminatory trend when it was happening and he had the ear of African Americans, who are, as Democrats and as victims of discrimination themselves, the most persuadable, was a squandered opportunity.

Gays might want to follow the example of a group of Libertarians, who picked a state and committed to moving to it, in order to change its politics.

 

[Kulindahr]

What state was that?

I know the religious right chose SC at one time, but apparently the Lord's work isn't worth all the effort.

They picked New Hampshire, for a number of reasons, including that it's small enough that a few thousand voters can conceivably seriously change the political landscape. The pick was made in 2003, IIRC, and about a thousand of those pledged have moved so far -- I guess others are seeking job opportunities and such before moving.

 

[MystikWizard]

Take a look at this video of an elderly lady who supported Prop 8 being confronted by a No on 8 crowd.

Pretty intense.

http://gatorgop.blogspot.com/2008/11/crazy-lefties-attack-old-lady-at-no-on.html


And here is some commentary under the video for everyone to keep in mind:

Whatever the homosexuals think, they will not be able to change God's Word and will one day have to pay the price for not believing what God has written.
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

 

[Kulindahr]

Pretty intense, yes -- and just what Spense approves of.

 

[Spensed]

Pretty intense, yes -- and just what Spense approves of.

Not at all. I would have tried to get them to leave you alone. LOL.