Queers against Israeli Apartheid

[Glafna]

Dear Glafna, that's not logical.

You should be familiar with the saying, "those that fail history are doomed to repeat it".

This has been shown with numerous genocides and war crimes where civilians were massacred. Also with foreign policy. The Roman Empire, the Persian, the empire of Alexander the Great, the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire, the American Empire.
Different subject, but the lesson still has poignant meaning.

 

[pat grimshaw]

…the lesson still has poignant meaning.

no poignancy for me, Glaf.
My tear ducts have already been wrung dry

 

[Glafna]

no poignancy for me, Glaf.
My tear ducts have already been wrung dry

Not at all what I mean.

 

[Kulindahr]

Oh please like there is a chance anyone will wipe out the Abrahamic religions. You people have all of the power in the world and yet you whine about imaginary discrimination more then any actual minority in the world. Plus I think the real idiocy comes from a certain gay Christian (oxymoron that it is) defending such a cult and then whining on his blog on this site about times he gets upset and wonders whether his god is punishing him for accepting his gayness. Furthermore I have never advocated extermination of people of these religions only the eduction of the populace to turn people away from these religions. However you and the Muslims openly believe that your god will send disbelievers to some celestial concentration camp in your imaginary afterlife and the Muslims actually believe in violence and fighting disbelievers.

This exhibits such a warped view of the things you see it's amazing you can function on your own.

 

[Kulindahr]

However, Desmond Tutu isn't exactly a person who I would be calling a liar, lol.

Heh -- no kidding.

 

[Mariatenebre]

This exhibits such a warped view of the things you see it's amazing you can function on your own.

Hey I am not the one who chooses a religion even though it is known to be against him. Neither do I spend my down time wondering if some kind of affiliction I may be suffering against is from some imaginary god for accepting myself the way I am. You even mentioned on one thread that you chose Christianity even though it causes you emotional pain sometimes. Of course as predicted you could not address the assertions in my post but rather wondered "how I could function."

 

[Kulindahr]

Hey I am not the one who chooses a religion even though it is known to be against him. Neither do I spend my down time wondering if some kind of affiliction I may be suffering against is from some imaginary god for accepting myself the way I am. You even mentioned on one thread that you chose Christianity even though it causes you emotional pain sometimes. Of course as predicted you could not address the assertions in my post but rather wondered "how I could function."

Your assertions were too warped from reality to even consider addressing without a 10,000-word post, beginning with correcting your misconceptions.

I'll correct one of the three major ones above: your second assertion, in the first sentence, is in error.

 

[BostonPirate]

I had to walk away from this forum for a week because of this thread and how much its lunacy offends me.

it proposes two things:

• Israel is aparthied, which it is not, and
  
• We as Queers need to defend Palestine because of it.

Now as Jockboy will attest, I have been extremely critical of Israel in the past, and mostly because I think they overreact to their neighbors... Some of the older gentlemen here will remember what we used to call the Masada complex. Israels belief that fatal doom was ever impending, and that they would fight and die to the last man to fight that inescapable national destruction.

BUT

Palestinians have been lobbing missiles, bombs, rocks, and suicide bombers at Israel for about forty years now. They have been dedicated, by their own definition, to the destruction of Israel. Their leadership is Hamas, a freely elected political party, that DEMANDS THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL.

now heres the bottom line for me....

Hamas is clear that it dislikes only one other group just as much if not more than the Israelis.... QUEERS

I have no taste for the GOP in the USA and I personally am dedicated to see them hold as little power in america as possible JUST FOR THEIR STANCE ON GAY ISSUES.

Now I have stated that my core political beliefs are motivated by civil rights first, or the basic individual rights and needs, Then second regional and national, the well being of our nation, the USA, and third, international policies that line up with those first two prioritized values.

So let me state once again for all the slow learners and those that just want to hurl insults back and forth and take rigid lines here....

We are talking about gays supporting the palestinian struggle.

Israel is the only gay friendly nation in the mideast, to my knowledge. It needs to be supported for that internationally, so that one day people like palestinians can't hang people for being gay.

Without civil rights first, its a deal breaker for me.

Period.

If the palestinians and their friends want THIS QUEER to fight against israel ANYTHING, they first have to tell me why it is reasonable to do so for a people that would kill me if I was in their nation, against the only region in that place that would provide me protection as a gay man.

Its not the ever exhausting palestinian israeli conflict and either sides behavior towards each other that I am concerned with. Its a thousands year old hatred between them, and there have been atrocities committed by and against both sides.

This for me is a civil rights issue, as aparthied suggests, and a gay issue, not a mid eastern one.

Definition of APARTHEID

1. : racial segregation; specifically : a former policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of South Africa
   
2. : separation, segregation <cultural apartheid> <gender apartheid>

So what you are asking is:

• Should gays or "Queers" have a reason to support this issue
  
• Should I believe that Israel is Aparthied.

To support Palestinians who vote people into office that hang gay people violates and offends me. The core of how I develop my personal belief system relies on Me and my kind first at least being granted the right to be alive, litterally,

Israel has to keep the vote from the palestinians within the Israeli poliitcal structure, and defend the borders, because if enough muslims got into Israel and had voting rights, gays in Israel would be in danger.

Is that aparthied?

Is it even worthy of us as human beings to go after Israel for its "apartheid" behavior, when the people they are supposedly aiming it at have a consistent track record of killing gays and jews?

NO

I want all of you here in support of the palestinian plight to go over there to palestine, and tell them that you are gay.

you would all be put to death, and there would be no one to take up for them her.

 

[Glafna]

Well Boston. Although I 'respect' your opinions, You still have yet to answer my question. WHY is it that queers in the west jump all over people criticizing Israel. Pretend Palestine doesn't exist, that the rockets and bombs aren't being tossed over, and really think. WHY is it that people crucify them for their opinion that a country should be accountable for their actions, regardless of who it's actions effect.

Now on to your post.

First of all, I have NOT suggested that Israel is apartheid, I have provided information that says it is. And no we are not saying that we need to defend Palestine. Have you been paying ANY attention? It is others, including Bishop Desmond Tutu, one of the biggest campaigners for equal rights in the world, who declared it Apartheid. Did you even LOOK at the links I posted?

Yes, Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. But I wonder why it is they get so much support.... Many captured insurgents from the US "War On Terror" in the middle east state that they go to fight because of the abuses the Coalition troops suffer onto their fellow Muslims. I wonder if there's any connection?(well, that and religion is retarded about that stupid piece of "holy land")


And your talking civil rights and liberties. I agree. Israel has a great gay rights record. But the thing is, why would I be happy about that, if another group isn't getting the same rights as we are, while they are living within Israel? I'm talking about the Israli-Arabs, and the Palestinians who were displaced by the Israeli government/army. Not the whole of Palestine.

And really, this isn't a black vs white bullshit debate that people seem to think it is. It's, 'Hey, you start treating them right, and maybe they'll stop supporting the ones sending bombs and missiles into your country'.

And on that last statement of denying Palestinians who are legal citizens of Israel the right to vote. Where the fuck do you get off. There is a vast majority of Israeli-jews in the country. You REALLY think that them MAYBE negatively affecting gay rights is justifiable to deny them the same rights we have? Stop Pink Washing the issue.

In reality, this has NOTHING to do with gays.

 

[BostonPirate]

Well Boston. Although I 'respect' your opinions, You still have yet to answer my question. WHY is it that queers in the west jump all over people criticizing Israel. Pretend Palestine doesn't exist, that the rockets and bombs aren't being tossed over, and really think. WHY is it that people crucify them for their opinion that a country should be accountable for their actions, regardless of who it's actions effect.

Now on to your post.

First of all, I have NOT suggested that Israel is apartheid, I have provided information that says it is. And no we are not saying that we need to defend Palestine. Have you been paying ANY attention? It is others, including Bishop Desmond Tutu, one of the biggest campaigners for equal rights in the world, who declared it Apartheid. Did you even LOOK at the links I posted?

Yes, Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. But I wonder why it is they get so much support.... Many captured insurgents from the US "War On Terror" in the middle east state that they go to fight because of the abuses the Coalition troops suffer onto their fellow Muslims. I wonder if there's any connection?(well, that and religion is retarded about that stupid piece of "holy land")


And your talking civil rights and liberties. I agree. Israel has a great gay rights record. But the thing is, why would I be happy about that, if another group isn't getting the same rights as we are, while they are living within Israel? I'm talking about the Israli-Arabs, and the Palestinians who were displaced by the Israeli government/army. Not the whole of Palestine.

And really, this isn't a black vs white bullshit debate that people seem to think it is. It's, 'Hey, you start treating them right, and maybe they'll stop supporting the ones sending bombs and missiles into your country'.

And on that last statement of denying Palestinians who are legal citizens of Israel the right to vote. Where the fuck do you get off. There is a vast majority of Israeli-jews in the country. You REALLY think that them MAYBE negatively affecting gay rights is justifiable to deny them the same rights we have? Stop Pink Washing the issue.

In reality, this has NOTHING to do with gays.

Bullshit.

the first name of the group is "Queers" and it is used to define their membership. How you tell me why we need to defend a group of people as queers, that hang gays versus the group of people that provide haven for them in the middle east.

Tell me that.

Dont keep evading it and avoiding it.

Pink washing the issue???? from your first post....

The name of a group that has been forced to back out of Toronto's Pride Parade this year due to aggressive by the latest mayor, and has the Jewish Defense Leauge, a multi-national group that fights against hatred towards the Jewish Community, lobbying for the Prides funding to be cut.

that was your first question. and here was what you wanted responses on....

My question to you is, Why is there such a push by Jewish organizations and members of the Gay community against those speaking something negative about Israel? What's the problem here?

Did you not write those words???

From beginning to end that his how you framed your OP and how I responded.

To say anyone should NOT is ludicrous.

DEfending the fuckers that hang young men for being in love with each other is NOT high on my list. I have many reasons to criticize the Israeli nation, but from the perspective of organized political activism, it is detrimental to our cause to support any organisation that in the end would harm our ability to live.

 

[Kulindahr]

Nicely stated:

I had to walk away from this forum for a week because of this thread and how much its lunacy offends me.

it proposes two things:

• Israel is aparthied, which it is not, and
  
• We as Queers need to defend Palestine because of it.

Now as Jockboy will attest, I have been extremely critical of Israel in the past, and mostly because I think they overreact to their neighbors... Some of the older gentlemen here will remember what we used to call the Masada complex. Israels belief that fatal doom was ever impending, and that they would fight and die to the last man to fight that inescapable national destruction.

BUT

Palestinians have been lobbing missiles, bombs, rocks, and suicide bombers at Israel for about forty years now. They have been dedicated, by their own definition, to the destruction of Israel. Their leadership is Hamas, a freely elected political party, that DEMANDS THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL.

now heres the bottom line for me....

Hamas is clear that it dislikes only one other group just as much if not more than the Israelis.... QUEERS

I have no taste for the GOP in the USA and I personally am dedicated to see them hold as little power in america as possible JUST FOR THEIR STANCE ON GAY ISSUES.

Now I have stated that my core political beliefs are motivated by civil rights first, or the basic individual rights and needs, Then second regional and national, the well being of our nation, the USA, and third, international policies that line up with those first two prioritized values.

So let me state once again for all the slow learners and those that just want to hurl insults back and forth and take rigid lines here....

We are talking about gays supporting the palestinian struggle.

Israel is the only gay friendly nation in the mideast, to my knowledge. It needs to be supported for that internationally, so that one day people like palestinians can't hang people for being gay.

Without civil rights first, its a deal breaker for me.

Period.

If the palestinians and their friends want THIS QUEER to fight against israel ANYTHING, they first have to tell me why it is reasonable to do so for a people that would kill me if I was in their nation, against the only region in that place that would provide me protection as a gay man.

Its not the ever exhausting palestinian israeli conflict and either sides behavior towards each other that I am concerned with. Its a thousands year old hatred between them, and there have been atrocities committed by and against both sides.

This for me is a civil rights issue, as aparthied suggests, and a gay issue, not a mid eastern one.

Definition of APARTHEID

1. : racial segregation; specifically : a former policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of South Africa
   
2. : separation, segregation <cultural apartheid> <gender apartheid>

So what you are asking is:

• Should gays or "Queers" have a reason to support this issue
  
• Should I believe that Israel is Aparthied.

To support Palestinians who vote people into office that hang gay people violates and offends me. The core of how I develop my personal belief system relies on Me and my kind first at least being granted the right to be alive, litterally,

Israel has to keep the vote from the palestinians within the Israeli poliitcal structure, and defend the borders, because if enough muslims got into Israel and had voting rights, gays in Israel would be in danger.

Is that aparthied?

Is it even worthy of us as human beings to go after Israel for its "apartheid" behavior, when the people they are supposedly aiming it at have a consistent track record of killing gays and jews?

NO

I want all of you here in support of the palestinian plight to go over there to palestine, and tell them that you are gay.

you would all be put to death, and there would be no one to take up for them her.

I think the archbishop was referring to how Israel is basically de facto in charge of Gaza and the rest, but has put up a wall to make Palestinian "homelands". That resembles apartheid in South Africa a great deal.

Bullshit.

the first name of the group is "Queers" and it is used to define their membership. How you tell me why we need to defend a group of people as queers, that hang gays versus the group of people that provide haven for them in the middle east.

Tell me that.

Dont keep evading it and avoiding it.


From beginning to end that his how you framed your OP and how I responded.

To say anyone should NOT is ludicrous.

Defending the fuckers that hang young men for being in love with each other is NOT high on my list. I have many reasons to criticize the Israeli nation, but from the perspective of organized political activism, it is detrimental to our cause to support any organisation that in the end would harm our ability to live.

I will defend the Palestinians to this point only: just because they're essentially barbarians with no value on human life does not give Israel open license to deal with them in any way that they might wish.

But, then, Israel doesn't do that -- they already go to great lengths to be "civilized" about their defenses and strikes.

 

[BostonPirate]

I think all life deserves respect.

The palestinians disagree with me.

Who am I to argue.

 

[bankside]

WHY is it that queers in the west jump all over people criticizing Israel.

They don't. From Sweden to Saskatchewan the world (and thus the gay world) expects more from Israel. The "Defend Israel's Bad Behaviour at All Costs" campaign is almost exclusively an American phenomenon. The fact that this seems like a "gay opinion of the west" has more to do with the overabundance of American opinion in the international gay community than anything to do with sexual orientation. Or indeed anything to do with Israel's relative tolerance of homosexuality compared to its neighbours.

Human rights do not thrive under the kind of conditions imposed by the Al-Saud family on Saudi Arabia. Nor by the Al-Assad family on Syria. Nor by Israel on Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem.

 

[kallipolis]

There isn't one Arab country with the constitutional protection that Israel confers on all its citizens, regardless of religion, or ethnicity, or sexual orientation.

I also am uncomfortable with the settlements on the West Bank, but by any measure it is simply not possible to gaze upon the entire region reaching from Casablanca to The Gulf, and beyond; then to point indignantly, and say: ah, yes, Gaza, that's where the great injustice lies.

There are no angels in this great human tragedy. To selectively identify the weaknesses, and hypocrisy in Israeli policy responses to the Occupied Territories, and Gaza is to remain blind to the realities of the ongoing violence in Syria, Libya, and Yemen perpetrated by the ruling elites upon their own peoples.

Justice for the human race demands much more than selectively pin pointing the patent failings of the Jews, in their response to their neighbour's need for justice.

Justice for mankind demands that we also respond to human suffering where ever it is crying out for our practical assistance.

 

[kallipolis]

They don't. From Sweden to Saskatchewan the world (and thus the gay world) expects more from Israel. The "Defend Israel's Bad Behaviour at All Costs" campaign is almost exclusively an American phenomenon. The fact that this seems like a "gay opinion of the west" has more to do with the overabundance of American opinion in the international gay community than anything to do with sexual orientation. Or indeed anything to do with Israel's relative tolerance of homosexuality compared to its neighbours.

Human rights do not thrive under the kind of conditions imposed by the Al-Saud family on Saudi Arabia. Nor by the Al-Assad family on Syria. Nor by Israel on Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem.

Anticipating much more progressive policies from Israel in relation to its actions in the Occupied Territories, and Gaza is also dependent upon reciprocation from the Palestinians living in those territories, and their sponsors in Iran, and Syria.

 

[bankside]

Anticipating much more progressive policies from Israel in relation to its actions in the Occupied Territories, and Gaza is also dependent upon reciprocation from the Palestinians living in those territories, and their sponsors in Iran, and Syria.

Paradoxically, yet helpfully, I think the reverse is true; Israel's scope for legitimate action, as viewed by the international community, would increase greatly by withdrawing to the 67 borders.

I'd be tempted to recognise Palestine and then go to war against it outright as long as Hamas remains part of the government. Palestine is much more accountable under international law as an independent country than as an occupied and colonised territory.

 

[Kulindahr]

Paradoxically, yet helpfully, I think the reverse is true; Israel's scope for legitimate action, as viewed by the international community, would increase greatly by withdrawing to the 67 borders.

I'd be tempted to recognise Palestine and then go to war against it outright as long as Hamas remains part of the government. Palestine is much more accountable under international law as an independent country than as an occupied and colonised territory.

Giving up the Golan would be foolish.

But if Palestine were recognized, it would suddenly lose its aid from a number of countries, because with Hamas in power it would be classed as a terrorist state. So Israel might be better off recognizing it -- even if not with the '67 borders.

 

[kallipolis]

Paradoxically, yet helpfully, I think the reverse is true; Israel's scope for legitimate action, as viewed by the international community, would increase greatly by withdrawing to the 67 borders.

I'd be tempted to recognise Palestine and then go to war against it outright as long as Hamas remains part of the government. Palestine is much more accountable under international law as an independent country than as an occupied and colonised territory.

Without a quid pro quo from the Palestinians, Israel's withdrawal to 1967 borders would be counter productive, and would in the eyes of the Palestinians demonstrate weakness, even surrender.

In the Middle East progress is measured by the inch, rather by the mile.

The international community will not assist the Israeli people should their country be over run by the armed forces of their Arab neighbours, as a result of surrendering strategically vital territory in order to appease those whose armchair view of reality is comfortably seated, thousands of miles away from yet another re-run of the Arab/Israel conflict.

 

[bankside]

Quid pro quo?

At the moment, Israel's position is "Stop resisting our occupation and colonization, and then we'll talk!"

Why would you doubt the international community's resolve regarding the territorial integrity of Israel-proper? Actually I think the 1967 borders of Israel are as close to an inviolable border as can be imagined.

 

[kallipolis]

Quid pro quo?

At the moment, Israel's position is "Stop resisting our occupation and colonization, and then we'll talk!"

Why would you doubt the international community's resolve regarding the territorial integrity of Israel-proper? Actually I think the 1967 borders of Israel are as close to an inviolable border as can be imagined.

That would be your highly partisan interpretation of reality.

In reality Israel is saying to the extremists - stop launching missiles, and stop exploding explosives that kill innocent Israeli civilians.

When the Israelis feel much more secure that the Palestinians have stopped using terrorism against Israelis then there is a prospect of negotiations that can lead to an improvement in living conditions for the Palestinians.

I wouldn't trust the UN, the EU or anyone else to protect my security. By the time the bureaucrats have discussed the matter, and reached some sort of consensus to initiate action most Israelis will have been killed. The Jews have good reason to be wary, and weary of international intervention to protect their lives. Over six million reasons.