So, what do you guys think about the possible mosque by ground zero

[Críostóir]

Croistoir, the Southerners don't see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, either. Croistoir, I have an unfortunate family history, and for the longest time, I failed to see this point, myself. I just "didn't get it".

But it IS a symbol of racism. It was used that way in living memory, and still is used that way by many. A community center is in no way a symbol of Al Qaeda. It's not a symbol of anything.

What if the Aryan Nations opened a recruiting office a couple of blocks away from the Jewish Holocaust Museum in Manhattan?

The Aryan Nation is an explicitly anti-Jewish group. Muslims are not an explicitly anti...what? Anti-American? They're not pro-terrorism, as a group identity.

Johann, your problem is that you hate Muslims, probably because you blame them all for the actions of a few twisted heretics. You have false ideas about who they are and what they stand for. Nothing that Muslims really stand for has anything to do with the WTC.

There are things about Islam that are objectionable, to be sure. But nothing that this kind of cultural center wouldn't do more to heal than to harm.

 

[Críostóir]

MoltenRock, I've known you—and admired you—for quite a long time. Your absence was missed. I want to talk to you man-to-man.

You might see my views as bigoted, but they're not, really. I despise Islam from the bottom of my heart, but I don't hate the people at all. In fact, my hatred for Islam is based on compassion.

I love women, MoltenRock, and I think it's fair to say that I'm the biggest "hag fag" on JUB. But yet, I see Islam as treating women very much like livestock. Women have to wear black burkhas in 100plus degree heat, and even in more liberal Islam countries they have to wear a chador, which is a stupid Medieval rag. When a rape occurs, the rapist doesn't get punished, the victim does—she gets murdered in an "honor killing". Women, even here in the US, have gotten "honor killed" for simply taking a job, or for dating a black guy. 4-year-old girls are routinely raped, because the Koran says no virgin can be executed. Danish cartoonists, 1000s of miles away, are issued fatwas for the cardinal sin of offending Mohammed. (Am I going to be issued a fatwa for writing these words?)

I feel compassion for these victims of a most horrendous religion.

I see Islam as a staph infection on humanity.

As such, I see a mosque as a symbol as well as a place of worship, and I think building that mosque just a couple of blocks away from a crime scene is the ultimate act of insensitivity.

I trust that you, a fellow humanist, can at least see this point of view, if not agree with it.

I think

Honor killings are a cultural tradition, not a requirement of Islam. So are burkas and hijab. My Muslim friend Arben, who is Albanian, says his mother and sister don't wear head coverings of any kind except for protection from the weather, and never have, and neither did his grandmother or anyone in Albania.

And this isn't a mosque. It's a cultural center, like the 92nd Street YMHA. It has a prayer room. And there are mosques in that neighborhood.

 

[Críostóir]

Croistoir, no, sir. YOU say it's a symbol, but a lot of people disagree.

It's more about sovereignty of a nation, that was spoilt, raped, and burnt to the ground by another nation (the Yankees).

It's about James Chaney. It's about Andrew Goodman. It's about Michael Schwerner. It's about these other people. That's what that flag means in America today.

Before that, it was a symbol used by a group of slaveholders who couldn't stand the idea that owning other humans was about to be outlawed, and declared themselves, nonsensically, a "Sovereign Nation" (not unlike the people who attempt to declare themselves "Sovereign Persons" and claim that having done so they don't have to pay taxes). It was a symbol of slavery and treason.

After the bloodiest period in our nation's history, these traitor states were readmitted to the Union, instead of being treated as a conquered enemy, which would have been no more than they deserved. This was out of mercy and compassion, and the South was rebuilt, even though it has never given up the resentment for THAT, either, since it was all done without slave labor.

The flag of the south, like the flag of the north, is the American Flag: 50 white stars on a blue inset to a background of red and white stripes. The Confederate Flag proclaims support for treason against the United States, and the belief that some people, by reason of their race, ought to be property, and that failing that they should recognize their inferiority on pain of death.

THAT's what that flag stands for. Anyone who flies it is proclaiming their allegiance to those ideas.

 

[Críostóir]

Shorter me: No, I don't see the comparability between a) building a cultural center on private property, and exercising First Amendment rights to do so, and b) celebrating treason, enslavement, and racism.

 

[Críostóir]

<chuckles>

You're a Yankee who doesn't understand anything.

The South had their own plan for freeing the slaves but...oh, never mind, Croistoir. You don't know anything about Southern history.

Hey, Croistoir, yeah, we had slaves, but you Yankees were the ones who sold them to us. Did you know that the primary port of influx was...Boston?

But they stopped. And then the whole country, by legal and constitutional means, decided to stop having slaves.

And you guys didn't, so you committed treason so you wouldn't have to.

And you lost the war. GET OVER IT.

 

[bankside]

It would be like the Catholics building a church next to a day-care centre. Totally insensitive.

 

[Críostóir]

It would be like the Catholics building a church next to a day-care centre. Totally insensitive.

Just so. Catholic priests shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a school. Neither should nuns, since they're just agents (probably procurers!) for the priests.

 

[MercuryJones]

Everybody here seems to be focusing on the behavior of the anti-Islamics, without realizing that the Islamics building the mosque are the ones being insensitive. That's a double standard.

I see the issue as being very similar to this one:

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317551

Bullshit, Johann.

People are focused on the Constitutional right to freedom of religion.

It's not even a mosque, and it's disingenuous of you to describe it as such.

 

[MercuryJones]

Indeed, some political observers posited the tantalizing idea that, if the Confederacy had succeeded in seceding, eventually you'd have had a whole lot of independent little countries, like in Europe.

And that's not a bad thing. But the cost of it coming at slavery lasting even one more year is too great a price to pay.

 

[unclaimedblessing]

Suppose the descendents of non-slave owning Southerners bought a building in Haarlem and decided to fly the Confederate flag?

Would all the rhetoric about the constitution and sensitivity be the same?

Only a minority of Southerners owned plantations and slaves (most were sharecroppers and laborers) the same as all Moslems are not terrorists.

 

[Críostóir]

Suppose the descendents of non-slave owning Southerners bought a building in Haarlem and decided to fly the Confederate flag?

Would all the rhetoric about the constitution and sensitivity be the same?

Well, first of all, Haarlem is in the Netherlands. Harlem is in NYC.

And flying a flag is nothing like building an innocuous building. If someone wanted to fly an Al Qaeda flag across the street from Ground Zero,* I'd think that was protected but insensitive. THAT'S the equivalent of flying the Southern Treason Flag in Harlem.
____
* And the innocuous building isn't even that close to Ground Zero.

 

[MercuryJones]

Suppose the descendents of non-slave owning Southerners bought a building in Haarlem and decided to fly the Confederate flag?

Would all the rhetoric about the constitution and sensitivity be the same?

The argument about free speech would be the same. But note that religion has special Constitutional status.

You make a pity of yourself, looking for justifications for your bigotry and disregard for the Constitution.

 

[MercuryJones]

I believe Freedom of Speech is badly overrated, and as I said, if we were sensible, we'd be like the Canadians who banned that cunt Ann Coulter. Oftentimes, Freedom of Speech protects the bad guys, not the good ones.

But this point is not really germane to the discussion, is it?

I can only say that when the rights of unpopular minorities - like gays or Muslims - are protected, the rights of all are protected.

Canada has not banned Ann Coulter. So you're wrong on that.

Free speech is never absolute, however, and Canada draws a slightly different line than the US does. But that wouldn't prevent a group of Muslims from building a community center.

 

[xxxsultanxxxx]

MoltenRock, I've known you—and admired you—for quite a long time. Your absence was missed. I want to talk to you man-to-man.

You might see my views as bigoted, but they're not, really. I despise Islam from the bottom of my heart, but I don't hate the people at all. In fact, my hatred for Islam is based on compassion.

I love women, MoltenRock, and I think it's fair to say that I'm the biggest "hag fag" on JUB. But yet, I see Islam as treating women very much like livestock. Women have to wear black burkhas in 100plus degree heat, and even in more liberal Islam countries they have to wear a chador, which is a stupid Medieval rag. When a rape occurs, the rapist doesn't get punished, the victim does—she gets murdered in an "honor killing". Women, even here in the US, have gotten "honor killed" for simply taking a job, or for dating a black guy. 4-year-old girls are routinely raped, because the Koran says no virgin can be executed. Danish cartoonists, 1000s of miles away, are issued fatwas for the cardinal sin of offending Mohammed. (Am I going to be issued a fatwa for writing these words?)

I feel compassion for these victims of a most horrendous religion.

I see Islam as a staph infection on humanity.

As such, I see a mosque as a symbol as well as a place of worship, and I think building that mosque just a couple of blocks away from a crime scene is the ultimate act of insensitivity.

I trust that you, a fellow humanist, can at least see this point of view, if not agree with it.

I think

You are so blinded by lies about my religion. My family is full of women who are both religious and educated. Some wear the scarf and some don't . Who the hell are you to sit there and insult them without taking the time to know them. Fuck you for judging somebody based on their outward appearance.

Women wear the scarf in many Middle Eastern countries because it is part of our cultural garb. The Virgin Mary also wore similar clothings. Would you consider her livestock??? There are many problems with gender discrimination in the Middle East... and other parts of the world too (including non-Muslim countries). I suggest you visit a domestic abuse shelter in your own city to broaden your perspective of how common violence against women is worldwide.

The Quran never allows for rape and marriage contracts are only done between consenting adults. A woman is not allowed to be forced into marriage according to the Quran.

You are not a humanist

 

[xxxsultanxxxx]

What if the Aryan Nations opened a recruiting office a couple of blocks away from the Jewish Holocaust Museum in Manhattan?

Aryan Nations, a violent organization, is not the same as an Islamic community center. You analogy is ridiculous.

Another analogy I have heard it the building of a Japanese center near Pearl Harbor. In reality, Hawaii has the largest Japanese population in the US and there are several Shinto Temples within a few miles of Pearl Harbor.

 

[xxxsultanxxxx]

Canada has not banned Ann Coulter. So you're wrong on that..

Johann is like a mini-fox news. Pays little attention to facts and just keeps regurgitating talking points he hears from bigots.

 

[Críostóir]

Or maybe we're both too doggone stubborn; I don't know. At any rate, Criostoir, we are both fellow leftists, and I've always respected your other political opinions, and I think a gentleman's agreement to disagree on this particular issue is now in order.

<shakes hands>

As a leftist, why are you carrying water for the extreme right? You do know that this whole controversy was manufactured to rouse the passions of the Tea Party types and incite hatred against Muslim Americans (and anyone who can be mistaken for them) for exactly the reasons the Nazis incited hatred against the Jews, right? No one cared about this before Tea Partiers started ranting about it.

 

[fetaby]

I believe Freedom of Speech is badly overrated, and as I said, if we were sensible, we'd be like the Canadians who banned that cunt Ann Coulter. Oftentimes, Freedom of Speech protects the bad guys, not the good ones.

But this point is not really germane to the discussion, is it?

It's overrated enough for you to say that bullshit... if you don't like the right, then don't use it.

 

[Críostóir]

Criostoir, because I see women being victimized en masse.

A stand against Islam is also a stand for Feminism, and if that's not a leftist view, I don't know what is.

Do you know there are Muslim feminists? They clearly are not in agreement with you.

And you're still making common cause with some really nasty people. Are you sure it's worth it? Feminism is sure to be a casualty as these people take power. Not like they're going to rescue women from Saudi Arabia.

 

[MercuryJones]

A stand against Islam is also a stand for Feminism, and if that's not a leftist view, I don't know what is.

Right and left aren't two ends of a flat line, but of a circle, and they meet at the far ends. An example is the anti-porn left and the anti-porn right. Leftists have the same potential to be authoritarian as Rightists - and you're living an example.