The “gay agenda” today is fundamentally conservative

[construct]

The KKK started out among Southern Democrats and at its political heights was courted by BOTH parties. I'm afraid the Republicans have no lock on racial supremacists or segregationists. They have existed and exist in both parties.

Ya'd think, huh? [that they would be in the Constitution Party.

I'm not certain they've realized that exists.

There was no irony in my post. Chalk one up for Kuli to have understood me correctly.

 

[chance1]

My sense is it's an age thing

Not a party thing

I went to a gay marriage forum at Columbia University last summer and the findings suggested that people over the age of 60 ........... were very much against gay marriage

That when they died ............ and we're not wishing them death mind you ......... just naturally

they would be replaced by younger people who are more familiar with treating gays/lesbians with respect and equality

that simple

we need time

i hate that we do

but i think hating on repubs because they're repubs or conservatives is not the answer

and that dems who promise action and don't deliver ............ are not to be given a free pass

fool me once shame on you food me twice shame on me - love cliches

thanks for the thread mazda - very much

 

[T-Rexx]

That's a rather disgusting screed.

You're confusing conservative, the technical descriptive word, and conservatives, the political manipulators who are in fact reactionaries...

...Conservative means holding to traditional values and buying into traditional institutions.

If the author meant gays are becoming socially and not politically conservative, why did he point out that 27% of "social" conservatives supported John McCain and why did he claim (absurdly) that the Tea Party is not anti-gay? Are McCain and the Tea Party not political institutions?

Why did the author claim that gays used to hate America, that gays used to support the Viet Cong, and that gays used to support Castro? Was the Vietnam war not a political debate? Is communism not a political argument? What do the Vietnam war and communism have to do with wearing plain gray suits and not starting fights in bars?

Kirchick is a political writer, and he is trying to make a case that gays are becoming politically conservative. He is trying to argue that this is happening because the political conservative movement is no longer very anti-gay, so we no longer need to fear their rabid bigotry ("anti-gay animus does not appear to have any place in the Tea Party movement.").

The latter is an absurd contention. The conservative political movement in the USA is as anti-gay as it ever has been. Listen to the speeches of the Tea Party members. When it comes to anti-gay proclivities, the Tea Party members express their bigotry with pride.

Kirchick wants the Republican Party, I suspect, to adopt the liberal political values of balanced budgets and fiscal responsibility, while also adopting liberal social views of tolerance toward human beings who may be different from ourselves (including homosexuals). But the Republican Party is not about balanced budgets or fiscal responsibility or tolerance of oppressed human beings. And Kirchick's attempts to paint it as gay-friendly are bizarre.

What I find disgusting is Kirchick's own anti-gay bigotry. His self-hate is palpable and dysfunctional. To claim that gays formerly wanted America to lose the Vietnam war and that we supported Castro because we are communist and un-American is just about the most vile hate speech I have heard in recent years.

 

[JB3]

Kirchick wants the Republican Party, I suspect, to adopt the liberal political values of balanced budgets and fiscal responsibility, while also adopting liberal social views of tolerance toward human beings who may be different from ourselves (including homosexuals). But the Republican Party is not about balanced budgets or fiscal responsibility or tolerance of oppressed human beings. And Kirchick's attempts to paint it as gay-friendly are bizarre.

Balancing the budget is a liberal political view? On what planet?

And like Kuli, I think you're looking at this completely wrong. Your bias is affecting how you read it, and you're reading into it what you WANT it to say.

I think the LGBT equality movement has gotten much more conservative over the last 30 years. NOT politically, but certainly philosophically. It is no longer about free love and people being who they are (though that is still certainly an element), but is instead about seeking the things that straight couples have had for generations. Marriage, children, everything that signifies the transition to a full adult life. I mean, how many guys on here want kids, want a husband or wife, want the house in the burbs or the apartment in the city, two cars, and so on and so on? Those ARE conservative things. The fact that gays want to join those institutions, and take part in those things, is in fact a very conservative turn for a movement that was actually quite radical when it first came about.

Anyone that cannot acknowledge that the LGBT movement HAS become more conservative since the 70s can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[JayHawk]

Yeah your right the outcome of a positive DOD report is primarily because of radical liberals.

 

[Kulindahr]

Balancing the budget is a liberal political view? On what planet?

 

[CowboyBob]

Where do you think the gay agenda would be in 30 years if the conservative right wing Republicans were in power for a few decades?

Marriage? Serve in the armed forces? Adoption? No way. We would be all in the closet fearing exposure. We would be forced to pray away the gay as there would be prayer in schools that we wouldn't be allowed to teach at.

You can thank radical liberal progressives for getting us this far.

 

[JayHawk]

Still not the fucking point. I do thank radical activism for much but disregarding gay conservatives because you prefer the conveineince of lumping them with right wing religeous nazis is not only ignorant, it is misguided and dangerous to allow such a powerful segment of our political lanscape to go unchecked with no dissenting voice.

I realize it is an easy way to avoid discussing any issue and also easy to rally support but it is misguided.

People resist change with every inch of their being. I am not saying the only way change occurs is thru 'joining the right'. All pressure should be applied.

Just can't believe that the open minded folks around here, I should say some of the open minded folks, I can't believe you don't ghet it.

 

[KTheLibra]

All of the talk about the gay rights movement being fundamentally conservative is just a desperate attempt to get the right wing to support it. And they won't, not in a million years. I wish people would just give it up already. Conservative control means the end of gay issues, no matter how much reverse psychology you use on them. Yeah, it sucks, but it's the way it is now. We should just be grateful they're not trying to hunt us down like animals and kill us.

 

[Stardreamer]

All of the talk about the gay rights movement being fundamentally conservative is just a desperate attempt to get the right wing to support it. And they won't, not in a million years. I wish people would just give it up already. Conservative control means the end of gay issues, no matter how much reverse psychology you use on them. Yeah, it sucks, but it's the way it is now. We should just be grateful they're not trying to hunt us down like animals and kill us.

Hmm lets see half the legal team that challenged Prop 8 is a conservative Republican, the Judge that declared it unconstitutional is a conservative Republican, the organization that is leading and made the most progress in the courts against DADT are conservative Republicans. Yep your right no hope there.

 

[T-Rexx]

Balancing the budget is a liberal political view? On what planet?

What planet are you on?

Which was the last Republican president to balance the budget? - Oh yeah, EISENHOWER!!!

Which was the last Democratic president to balance the budget? Clinton, of course. But also Kennedy and Johnson. And Obama is attempting to balance it again within 6 years - something no Republican in the last 50 years has even tried to do!

Don't give me that stupid crap that conservatives are fiscally responsible and balance budgets. We haven't seen that kind of behavior from conservatives in more than half a century. Fiscal responsibility is a liberal value and has been practiced only by liberals over the past two generations.

 

[palemale]

There are no doubt many conservative gays. However, gay voters are unlikely to ever mirror the voting public in terms of the left-right divide or partisan politics. Gays tend to be better educated, congregate in urban areas, are over-represented in the arts, are less religious and are much less likely to have children. All these factors mitigate against support for a conservative political stance.

To the extent they mirror straight voters, they are likely to vote like the straight voters they associate with. The straight voters gays associate with, i.e. in their neighborhoods, jobs, etc, are going to be more liberal that straight voters as a whole.

 

[JayHawk]

What planet are you on?

Which was the last Republican president to balance the budget? - Oh yeah, EISENHOWER!!!

Which was the last Democratic president to balance the budget? Clinton, of course. But also Kennedy and Johnson. And Obama is attempting to balance it again within 6 years - something no Republican in the last 50 years has even tried to do!

Don't give me that stupid crap that conservatives are fiscally responsible and balance budgets. We haven't seen that kind of behavior from conservatives in more than half a century. Fiscal responsibility is a liberal value and has been practiced only by liberals over the past two generations.

Weird that we would carry 55 to 60 % debt while be balanced......

 

[Kulindahr]

Actually, there are a lot of gaycists (gay racists), so it'd follow that there are gay Repubs.

You're applauding a deceitful post?

 

[Kulindahr]

But also Kennedy and Johnson.

..... Fiscal responsibility is a liberal value and has been practiced only by liberals over the past two generations.

Johnson's the one that started the games of lies to make the budget look balanced, to finance the war he lied about not wanting, so he could beat Goldwater. Not even Clinton undid the mendacious accounting Johnson started -- if he had, he wouldn't have been able to maintain his lie about a balanced budget. And unless Obama stops the lying, by at the very least cutting Social Security receipts out of the budget and making that a totally separate set-up, he won't be balancing it, either.

There haven't been any presidents since Kennedy to maintain a balanced budget.

 

[Kulindahr]

Weird that we would carry 55 to 60 % debt while be balanced......

Debt isn't relevant to whether the budget is balanced -- only to how hard it may be to balance the budget, thanks to payments on that debt.

That's why I maintain the way to go is to slap a one-time levy on all personal wealth above five million, big enough to at least reduce the debt to domestic lenders only -- and preferably to pre-Reagan levels. Slap down the debt, you slap down the payments, and the budget is easier to balance, which makes the rest of the debt easier to eliminate.

 

[JB3]

What planet are you on?

Which was the last Republican president to balance the budget? - Oh yeah, EISENHOWER!!!

Which was the last Democratic president to balance the budget? Clinton, of course. But also Kennedy and Johnson. And Obama is attempting to balance it again within 6 years - something no Republican in the last 50 years has even tried to do!

Don't give me that stupid crap that conservatives are fiscally responsible and balance budgets. We haven't seen that kind of behavior from conservatives in more than half a century. Fiscal responsibility is a liberal value and has been practiced only by liberals over the past two generations.

Laughable. Just simply laughable. Balanced budgets and fiscal responsibility have never been a tenet of liberalism. Ever.

 

[JB3]

Where do you think the gay agenda would be in 30 years if the conservative right wing Republicans were in power for a few decades?

Marriage? Serve in the armed forces? Adoption? No way. We would be all in the closet fearing exposure. We would be forced to pray away the gay as there would be prayer in schools that we wouldn't be allowed to teach at.

You can thank radical liberal progressives for getting us this far.

You don't fucking understand the point of this story. It isn't saying that gays are moving towards conservative POLITICS. It is saying that the LGBT agenda has become more conservative since the 70s and 80s. (which is has) The very fact that gays wish the right to marry is conservative.

 

[Kulindahr]

You don't fucking understand the point of this story. It isn't saying that gays are moving towards conservative POLITICS. It is saying that the LGBT agenda has become more conservative since the 70s and 80s. (which is has) The very fact that gays wish the right to marry is conservative.

They don't want to understand. Over 3/4 of the people in this forum are so partisan they're like raving fundamentalists: every issue is about what they want it to be about, not what it actually says. They're fixated on labels, not on substance or content.

So you get the sort of "discussion" where people refuse to agree that a road is slushy

by saying, "It isn't slushy!"

 

[JayHawk]

Debt isn't relevant to whether the budget is balanced -- only to how hard it may be to balance the budget, thanks to payments on that debt.

That's why I maintain the way to go is to slap a one-time levy on all personal wealth above five million, big enough to at least reduce the debt to domestic lenders only -- and preferably to pre-Reagan levels. Slap down the debt, you slap down the payments, and the budget is easier to balance, which makes the rest of the debt easier to eliminate.

Oh I understand completely. It is just laughable that some proposed occurrence sometime in the way distant future is the basis for a claim that Clinton balanced the budget. That and the idea that the economic explosion starting just prior to his term was somehow his magical creation.