This Forum is full of hate

[Chalchalero]

And I believe you, as well as others "over-react" to some of the "Christian bashing" you claim goes on here. Your post on what your church and others do is going to win far more respect by many gay people than just saying, "stop hating". A.) I think the word "hate" is overused.

When many here talk about "radical or conservative Christians", that doesn't mean all Christians. But much as the radical Isalmists get all the attention, so too does the extreme gay hating "fringe" of Christianity. Finally moderate Christians are starting to speak out on gay issues, including the Unitarians, Episcopalians, and a few others. Think about it. On TV news shows which Christian gets put on the air? The gay friendly, love all, liberal/moderate Christian, or the Pat Robertson/Fred Phelps/Southern Baptist homophobe? I'd say 9 times outta 10, it's the anti-gay one.

Then the Christian groups (at least in the past 2 or 3 elections) have decided to energize their political power by targeting, and demonizing gay people. By having their parish goes to go to the polls to actively try to undermine gay rights. THIS is the face of Christianity, because frankly MANY, MANY Christian churches decided to make it a litmus test that their sheep vote for George W. Bush and the Republicans. The backlash that Christians are getting (IMHO) is strongly due to this latest political adventism.

This is precisely why so many of the evangelical churches are changing their direction. They are beginning to focus on (OMG!) religion and faith, rather than politics and social issues. A great many of the congregates of these churches are shell shocked at the way they are seen by outsiders and they do not like it. There is a large movement within the mainstream Evangelical and Pentecostal congregations to change that.

I do not doubt that there are extremists who will never stop fighting to spread their gospel of hate. But there is progress being made and I wish more people were made aware of it.

 

[Puzuzzu]

Glad to see your all still wackos.

I'm new here, so I'm still learning

 

[Telstra]

You are such a Drama queen!!!

And that will be my last post in this thread

Elwood just say:


hello Mary oops Marley ...

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

Yeesh....I finally caught up....Some notes:

Nazis/Crusades: Bad examples of pretty much anything, especially in this thread. Germans were Nazis regardless of whether or not they supported the concept; it was sort of required if you didn't want to end up in the concentration camps. Relative to this thread, it's important to note that dissent wasn't an option; it is with most churches.

The Crusades, even though they were sanctioned by the Church, were not the brainchild thereof; there were political issues (no one wanted to war in Europe, but they were missing the profit from it), as well as too many kids at home (the younger sons had no chance at making history). They needed to fight someone, and it was either Russia (too cold) or in the MIddle East. They went for the Middle East. The Church merely jumped on a bandwagon that was already happening.

JUB and Slamming Religion: Yes, this happens a lot. A lot of it is cool (such as against Phelps), but too much of it is to find an excuse to slam organized religion (such as the cannibal cult that started this thread). There have even been threads about religious practices (such as just about anything the OT) that simply aren't part of most religions. In that regard, it is a legitimate point to say that religion does seem to get slammed a lot.

Christians hating Gay Marriage: In a lot of ways, this is a bullshit argument. Way too many people (Christian or otherwise) PERIOD figure that domestic unions give you all of the rights of marriage, and so see that issue as solved. Especially as the stereotype is that gays don't raise kids (note: stereotype, not reality), and most people see the protections and rights of marriage as facilitating raising kids. Because that problem has apparently been solved, they've moved on to other things.

In short: Even though gay marriage is a legitimate cause, people have just moved on to more important fights.

What Has Christianity done for gays lately?: Yeesh. Stupidest question ever to anyone that bothers to read the news, preferably without looking for reasons to pick a fight. On the subtle front, you have the number of gay priests and lay leaders is on the rise, and a lot of Christian churches are allying with gay organizations in order to curb the hatred and provide support for AIDS sufferers as well as kids forced to run away thanks to abusive parents. And that's ignoring the recent schism in the Episcopalian church over the majority of them accepting gays in the priesthood.

And here's a basic civics lesson for you: If Christians are the vast majority, and anti-gay, then that means that any majority, and against gay marriage, then how does it get voted in? Why is it virtually assumed that the California Anti-GM bill is going to go down in flames? If conservative Christians truly did rule the roost, why didn't the LaRouche initiatives (one of which would have put anyone suffering from AIDS on an island) pass?

Sorry; whereas I appreciate that gays are under attack from the fundies, and that gays have been personally attacked by them, I'm just not seeing the horrible evil that should be represented by Christianity. I'm seeing far more good being done, and even the bad things are being minimized; Phelps was condemned by almost everybody, including Christians. But that's just not convenient to the point, now is it?

Yes, bad things have been done in the name religion; but let's not ignore the good just to concentrate on it; after all, what does The Bible say about planks of wood in your eye?

RG

 

[Puzuzzu]

I feel a flare up

 

[EvilForce]

Wow, Robin just kicked a whole lotta ass in one well-written post. I dare anybody to try to dissect that shit and make it sound like any less than the GOSPEL truth.

*chugs whiskey and coke*

Other than it's complete tripe and bollocks. Once I get a moment I'll list the many evils of the radical x-tians..far more damage, hate, and destruction than they ever "helped" by offsetting.

For now I'm laughing at that asshat James Dobson uberChristian extrodinaire make an ass out of himself showing his own ignorance of the bible.

Gotta love fundies.

 

[reverb285]

So who is initially responsible for the common perception of religious people as having a zero-tolerance policy in regards to homosexuality? The majority of people who visit this site? I highly doubt that. Perhaps it behooves you to find out jamedude and chastise those individuals....because if additionally you wish to chastise those homosexuals (or even non-homosexuals) who would react negatively to such a policy, then you are nuts and a bigger hypocrite than the Phelps clan if you have ever condemned his beliefs or that of people like him.

 

[rareboy]

Well Jamesdude.

Just like homos get tarred with a pretty wide brush, so do collective affinities like religious or political groups.

It is entirely hypocritical for one group to rail about discrimination and then use the same kind of limited language to complain about another.

Having said that, all fundamentalist religions have a lot to answer for. Most of them are quite strong enough to withstand the assault. Sometimes unfortunately.

To call most of Christ's followers Christians is an insult to Christ himself.

They are actually old testamentarians, no different from the hardline islamists or orthodox Jews.

You don't like the brickbats?

Well, get out there and change your religion back into something that Christ himself would recognize.

 

[Chalchalero]

I am so incredibly bored by the two most frequent stupidities uttered on these threads as an excuse for bashing religion (and it is not only Christians who get bashed, but Muslims as well, let us not forget) and people of any and all faiths.

First line of BS:

They are all fundamentalists and they hate us and treat us mean. They want to take away our rights as citizens.

Sure there are those who do wish to do that. But as has been pointed out so many times by very reasonable people whom the obsessive haters in this particular thread wish to continue to ignore, these are the anomalies.

So many of you are so brainwashed in the stupidity of your own prejudices that you are unaware of a great change that is going on within many religious organisations which are tiring of devoting so much time and energy to you and would like to get back to their own faith and relationship with God. But being gay, you cannot believe that anyone would have an interest in anything else but you.

The fact is that the gay community only has the rights that it has now because it has had to fight for them. Fighting for the perceptions of society as a whole to change and not only the religious minds is what has brought the gay community where it is today and what will bring whatever else they feel they are missing still.

Churches and religious groups have had some certain successes in their attempts to slow the tide of this sea change, but the fact is that it continues and with the assistance of many liberal church groups which exist all over the country if not the world. Because you refuse to see this does not make it any less so.

Second line of BS:

Why don't you speak up and stop them from treating us so badly. You are just as much responsible because you will not stand up to them and tell then they do not represent you.

More garbage.

As was already pointed out toy you, Fred Phelps was a great example of someone whom the entire religious community came out and rejected. Another example was when Jerry Falwell made his infamous speech about gays and lesbians along with a host of others of his favourite bogeymen were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. If you did not hear even the evangelical response to that then your heads were completely up your (or someone else's) asses.

But aside from that, how do you know what we are or are not doing individually? And how does that give you justification for your bigotry and hatred towards us who have done absolutely nothing against you? How do the extreme examples of idiots like Phelps, Robertson, Falwell, and their ilk explain the billions of religious people on this planet who do not think like they do, and your stubborn ignorant insistence upon linking us all together under one foul malodorous umbrella?

And for all of the whining, bitching and moaning you do about how religious people are keeping you down, have you forgotten what is at the actual foundation of this countries laws, i.e. the Constitution? Have you forgotten the landmark cases in which our very conservative Supreme Court still found it imperative upon themselves to uphold that lofty document?

Have you forgotten Lawrence et al v Texas? Have you forgotten the court's 2004 decision not to block gay marriage in Massachusetts?

You give far too much credit for far too much power to the religious right, as even they are subject to the US Constitution. Don't believe me? Ask one of them about Roe v Wade and watch the fur fly...

There is some reason that you people have for insisting that the sky is falling. I do not understand nor do I care what those reasons could be. The fact is, my Chicken Little's, the sky is not falling, the religious right is not coming after you, no matter how much some fanatics would probably like to, and your rights, instead of being eroded are being expanded. What more do you want?

And finally, I do not care what you think your excuses are. You do not have a right to hurt other people just because you feel you have been hurt. And you know full well that when you attack a person's fundamental faith and belief system that is hitting him straight in the heart of his very existence. You are telling him specifically that his existence along with his raison d'être, i.e. his faith is an aberration. For a bunch of people who protest and complain about the Catholic Church and others doing the same to you, it just seems hypocritical to me.

 

[Telstra]

Chalchalero, who are you representing ?

yourself or your religion ?

 

[Chalchalero]

Chalchalero, who are you representing ?

yourself or your religion ?

They are inseparable.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

I definitely agree that fundamentalist Christians have some serious issues when it comes to dealing with pretty much everything; if I wanted to point out most of the problems with any group, I would generally lay it at the feet of the most conservative members of that group, and when it comes to Christians, those are the fundamentalists. Any time that Christianity has run inquisitions and gone after scientists, you can usually bet that the fundamentalists have somehow taken the reigns of power.

However, as others have noted, in the long run, the fundamentalists aren't as powerful as you would make them out to be. Slavery, last time I checked, had been abolished, mostly thanks to various Christians (such as Harriet Beecher Stowe) and Christian groups (such as the Quakers helping the Underground Railroad). You even have various groups to thank for the rules of war throughout the ages, something that other groups simply don't have. Let's not ignore the concept of sanctuary, where someone in trouble could hide in a church (well, to a degree (there are plenty of examples where searchers of sanctuary were taken out of a church)). And that's ignoring the money that the Church itself has spent towards scientific
research throughout the ages, or the archiving of important works that the monks have done by copying important works.

For every Torquemada, you have a dozen St. Francis of Assisi's (and note which one has the sainthood).

Without the majority of Christians, it would be impossible for gay marriage to happen; if gay marriage was such an important thing for it to not happen, then it wouldn't and there would already be a constitutional amendment for it. However, last time I checked, there isn't. In fact, it seems that homosexuality has been given some tacit approval, at least in terms of recognizing that the gay community needs some. Also, a lot of people are recognizing that King James version has a lot of interesting translation issues; I think that one of the easiest ways to recognize a fundamentalist is the degree to which they go by that version, as opposed to the Living Bible version.

I guess what I'm saying is that you need to recognize that any group has those members that embarrass the group; consider NAMBLA, bug chasers, and barebackers before you say that the gay community has no one to be ashamed of...

RG

 

[vulgar_newcomer]

I guess what I'm saying is that you need to recognize that any group has those members that embarrass the group; consider NAMBLA, bug chasers, and barebackers before you say that the gay community has no one to be ashamed of...

RG

NAMBLA does NOT represent any angle of being a gay person you bigot.
You got some balls coming on a gay site and comparing being gay with pedophilia, or such groups such as NAMBLA.

You are pretty much a uneducated moron with shit head views.

Bug chasers and barebacking are things that are life style choices, be one gay or straight. They are not, I repeat ARE NOT things I am ashamed of as a gay man.
No more than I am ashamed that I am gay and some of my straight friends are into the fashionable cyrstal meth party scene. Being straight and a clubber doesn't mean everyone is into cyrstal meth or unsafe sex, yet that isn't any of my direct business.

It is sad some make poor choices but that is there choice the last I can remember and none of my business in AMerica.
You sort of should have just gone ahead and listed AIDS as something the gay community should be ashamed of as that is what your reference to bug chasers and bare backing refers to.
Tell me if a woman knows her male partner has HIV and they have intercouse without protection is that bare backing?????
What if a woman decides to have unprotected sex with a infected partner is she a bug chaser even though she is hetero?
Finally is that not her choice for better or worse if she knowingly does so as a adult in America?

It takes a lot to piss me off but your NAMBLA comment and assorted other bull shit got me.

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[Telstra]

NAMBLA does NOT represent any angle of being a gay person you bigot.
You got some balls coming on a gay site and comparing being gay with pedophilia, or such groups such as NAMBLA.

You are pretty much a uneducated moron with shit head views.

Bug chasers and barebacking are things that are life style choices, be one gay or straight. They are not, I repeat ARE NOT things I am ashamed of as a gay man.
No more than I am ashamed that I am gay and some of my straight friends are into the fashionable cyrstal meth party scene. Being straight and a clubber doesn't mean everyone is into cyrstal meth or unsafe sex, yet that isn't any of my direct business.

It is sad some make poor choices but that is there choice the last I can remember and none of my business in AMerica.
You sort of should have just gone ahead and listed AIDS as something the gay community should be ashamed of as that is what your reference to bug chasers and bare backing refers to.
Tell me if a woman knows her male partner has HIV and they have intercouse without protection is that bare backing?????
What if a woman decides to have unprotected sex with a infected partner is she a bug chaser even though she is hetero?
Finally is that not her choice for better or worse if she knowingly does so as a adult in America?

It takes a lot to piss me off but your NAMBLA comment and assorted other bull shit got me.

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it doesn't look that way.

 

[sabot3ur]

being gay and being a pedophile are vastly different things. liking little boys instead of little girls doesn't make you gay. and yeah, I'm not ashamed of bug chasers/barebackers, because they're either rediculously stupid, on drugs, mentally ill, or a mix. that's not restricted to the gay community by any means.

the difference in the "worst" christians brought up, and the "good" ones are just in interpretation of the same book. the same belief system. who's to say which side are "real" christians? both sides will denounce the other, and have proof for it coming from the same source.

 

[reverb285]

I guess what I'm saying is that you need to recognize that any group has those members that embarrass the group; consider NAMBLA, bug chasers, and barebackers before you say that the gay community has no one to be ashamed of...

The fallacy is your assumption that there is a "gay community" comparable to a religious group. The gay community merely consists of those who are gay. There are no set of tenets to follow in order to be gay. There is no anti-religion scripture. There are however anti-homosexuality writings from the various religions. People can and do choose to ignore those or claim that following them is not a prerequisite to be a good follower of their faith. But what makes them any more right than other members of the faith who say otherwise?

As to gay marriage being only possible due to Christians, I would attribute that to the increase of secularism.

 

[reverb285]

Writings express the ideas of some, not all.

Tell that to those believing their religious scripture express God's ideas. They just might ask you why you insist on thinking you're part of the faith if you think it's all a matter of human opinion, changeable according to human whim, absent any transcendent truth.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

NAMBLA does NOT represent any angle of being a gay person you bigot.
You got some balls coming on a gay site and comparing being gay with pedophilia, or such groups such as NAMBLA.

Had you bothered to read the post, my point was that if you are going to slam ANY organization based on the worst of its members, then you need to slam ALL organizations based on the worst of its members. As NAMBLA represents man/boy love (note the same sex issue), it does represent an aspect of the gay community that others would wish would disappear; they have been represented in a number of gay pride parades. The bug chasers also represent an issue, as do those that infect others with AIDS (the reason barebackers aren't popular). In essence, I'm just pointing out that there gays out there that lead socially unpopular lives...

You are pretty much a uneducated moron with shit head views.

Gee. Doesn't feel so good when you get hit the same way, does it?

It is sad some make poor choices but that is there choice the last I can remember and none of my business in AMerica.

Remember that in the context of religious groups. Some make poor choices, just as others do. Those choices hurt other people, and that anyone can make poor choices, regardless of sexual or religious orientation.

The point is that we need to learn that making bad choices is something that we do as individuals, and that we need to stop judging groups based on those individuals.

Also, by the way: I'm waiting for the list of gay rights lost to Christians. I'm not expecting to be a long one, but it would be an interesting one, I would suppose....

RG

 

[Pushover]

Say what you will, there is no single person, place, thing, or idea that has damaged the view of homosexuality more than religion. Period.

You want to know why I hate Christianity? Try and deny it and say it isn't true if you will, but I am firmly convinced that we, homosexuals, live our lives as second class citizens because of a little black book that condemns us (and it's equivalent in some other religions). Before Christianity came to many parts of the world, homosexuals weren't persecuted and it was widely accepted; mainly in the Americas and Europe.

NOBODY is going to tell me that I'm corrupt in the eyes of some made-up deity, and then they rule the world with an iron fist over the world governments, corrupting people's minds with fairy tales and hypocritical dogma. NOBODY is going to deny me my basic human rights and then tell me my actions are immoral and unclean, then try to save me.

This forum is full of hate? You start spouting Christian ideals and your damned bigoted opinions and bible thumping and expect people that are persecuted, executed, and denied their rights because of your beliefs to just roll over and play nice? Bullshit.

I literally have tears of frustration running down my face right now because of your stupid religious beliefs and the constant pushing of it into our faces. It's my damn right to hate and be angry at people and ideas that tell me I'm less of a human being because of who I choose to show my love to. Fuck your bigoted religion.

I don't care if I'm banned for saying that, and to hell with it; it needed to be said.

Excuse me I have to go calm myself down.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

The fallacy is your assumption that there is a "gay community" comparable to a religious group.

Er...Then why do I hear so much this so-called gay community....? Weird.

There is no anti-religion scripture.

Sure, there isn't. Ever heard of the little Red Book? Mien Kampf? Nietche? But if it makes you feel any better...

There are however anti-homosexuality writings from the various religions.

Yeah, in badly translated versions. Yeesh....

As to gay marriage being only possible due to Christians, I would attribute that to the increase of secularism.

Isn't secularism in opposition to religion? Weird...I thought it was because Christians were being as understanding as they say they are...

I love when people hit for fallacious thinking without realizing that the fallacies apply to them...

RG