Time to remove T&B from LGBT?

[Swellegant]

Two wrongs don't make a right, they just increase the number of wrongs. And sometimes good comes out of wrongs being done, but the good ends do not justify the wrongs that engendered them.

But perhaps I am being too idealistic. That's the downfall of many a progressive idealistic movement, that we're wedded to ideal and progressive practices while those whom we oppose are free to be dishonest, backhanded dickheads. Utopia cannot exist in the face of opposition, and people are so damned opposite.

But, ivory-tower idealism or not, I still think it's disgusting to perpetuate a wrong, and in the case of ditching the transgendered/transsexual and bisexual from our own little homosexual freedom bus is perpetuating the wrong that was done to us when we were ditched from heterosexual society in the first place.

I may fail in my quest, but if I have to sacrifice my honor to succeed, I will have failed anyway.

 

[BabiGayPimp]

One of the things that causes confusion in these kinds of debates is the meanings of words and the different connotations and even denotations that people will apply to it.

For example, the word "community." When I hear people say that there is no LGBT community, I usually hear a rather childishly utopian definition of a community: a bunch of people who like each other, bound by common agreement to aid and assist each other in mutual benefit, who have barbecues and yard-sales together and all live in a happy little village... like the Smurfs.

But really, the LGBT community is more like a huge family. You don't get to choose your relatives, you don't even have to like all of your relatives, you don't have to live with your relatives or agree with your relatives or have anything at all to do with your relatives, nor they you. But they are still your relatives, and you are theirs. You have blood and DNA and history in common, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about that.

People who wish to flush their immediate family down the drain in order to be part of another branch of family are just reprehensible in my opinion. I may loathe my mother, have no use for my half-brothers, and harbor a deep desire to push my cousin down a flight of stairs, but I'm certainly not going to harm all of my family just because I don't like some of them, and certainly not for my own selfish gains.

Thank you very much Swellegant for this excellent insight. I am, frankly, sick, sick, sick to death of people stating we have no community, shared concerns, or collective values simply because what we do have fails to serve their narrow, individually drawn interests.

There is community all around us for the having, if we would stop trying to frame it along our own biased definitions of community and experience it for what it is: repeating patterns of interactions and relationships (friendly and hostile) that replicate around the world and have something to teach us about what we are. When I look at other LGBT persons in our communities, I sometimes see myself reflected in them: the young and old; the in and the out.

 

[Apollo]

The poll in this thread is depressing. It is sad 29 people agree with the OP.

Sad they are too much of cowards to explain themselves in the thread.

 

[Swellegant]

I'm sorry, but that is unadulterated twaddle.

See, this is the problem: self-interest over community interest is what's wrong with the whole damned world. We can understand and even accept the fact that self-interest motivates us more strongly than community interest, but we must not perpetuate it just because it's there. That's like saying, "well, there's no cure for the common cold, so I might as well just spread it around so everyone is just as sick."

And don't be fooled: you choose to suck dick as much as a bisexual does... you did not choose your orientation any more than he did, but you certainly choose what you do about it. And that's what this is all about, this liberation movement: we have the inalienable human right to make those choices, to choose to live by our orientations the same as people of other orientations do.

The bisexual is excluded from society by the bigoted just as much as the homosexual; if we homosexuals then turn around and exclude the bisexual from our community as well, we are no better than the bigots... in fact we are worse, because we know how much it hurts to be excluded and still willingly do it to others.

This is the whole point of safety in numbers: if all us minorities could band together on common ground, we'd outnumber to bigots. We'd outnumber mainstream society itself. But if we keep on bickering among ourselves, mainstream society will continue to exclude us and deny us our rights. Why should we let them do that?

 

[TygreBryte]

Doughboy, did you type post #77 in all caps?

 

[G-Lexington]

>>>I'm Not Sure How Any Bisexual Can Be A Full Participating Member Of Our Community. Surely The Bonds That Forge Together This Community (at least among gay men) - Transcends The Shared Act Of Gay Sex. That Which Makes A Gay Man Gay Is Something That Can Never Be Shared By The Bisexual. Choosing To Suck Dick From Time To Time Is A Rather Low Bar For Inclusion - As Opposed To Those Who Are Predisposed To Its Exclusive Enjoyment.

And here is where I see the problem.

Bisexuals ARE attracted to both sexes. Just as gays aren't "choosing" to have sex with guys, bisexuals aren't "choosing" to be attracted to both. Your attitude seems to indicated that bisexual guys are simply straight guys who aren't turned off by the idea of gay sex, and so "dip their toes into the pool" once in awhile in between banging straight chicks. Sorry, that's not been my experience.

I may be reading between the lines here, but it seems you feel that since bisexual men CAN be attracted to women, they may as well go find themselves a woman, and leave the dick sucking to us experts. But bisexual men ARE attracted to men. The same way we are. They can desire a man, have sex with a man, fall in love with a man - in precisely the same way that gay men do. I think bi guys get a bum rap from gays, because (as I suggested above) they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they get into a relationship that lasts, gay guys will say that the guy wasn't REALLY bisexual - he was just gay and hiding behind the "bisexual tag". But if the relationship doesn't last, it's proof that you shouldn't get involved with a bisexual guy, because it won't last.

One of my good friends in a bisexual woman. She was in a relationship with another woman for five years, during which time she got grief that she was "really a lesbian". Then the other woman dumped her. My friend was mad, had that period of mourning, and finally took up with someone else about six months later. And since the person she took up with was a guy, people are telling her ex how right she was to dump her, "because she would've just left you for a man anyway".

And I'm sorry - I don't buy this transcending thing. I'm gay, not ubermensch. I expect to be treated as an equal, not as some special group that those who aren't a part of shall never know. I'm attracted to guys, that's all. I don't feel that should be derided OR applauded.

Lex

 

[Apollo]

>>>I'm Not Sure How Any Bisexual Can Be A Full Participating Member Of Our Community. Surely The Bonds That Forge Together This Community (at least among gay men) - Transcends The Shared Act Of Gay Sex. That Which Makes A Gay Man Gay Is Something That Can Never Be Shared By The Bisexual. Choosing To Suck Dick From Time To Time Is A Rather Low Bar For Inclusion - As Opposed To Those Who Are Predisposed To Its Exclusive Enjoyment.

And here is where I see the problem.

Bisexuals ARE attracted to both sexes. Just as gays aren't "choosing" to have sex with guys, bisexuals aren't "choosing" to be attracted to both. Your attitude seems to indicated that bisexual guys are simply straight guys who aren't turned off by the idea of gay sex, and so "dip their toes into the pool" once in awhile in between banging straight chicks. Sorry, that's not been my experience.

I may be reading between the lines here, but it seems you feel that since bisexual men CAN be attracted to women, they may as well go find themselves a woman, and leave the dick sucking to us experts. But bisexual men ARE attracted to men. The same way we are. They can desire a man, have sex with a man, fall in love with a man - in precisely the same way that gay men do. I think bi guys get a bum rap from gays, because (as I suggested above) they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they get into a relationship that lasts, gay guys will say that the guy wasn't REALLY bisexual - he was just gay and hiding behind the "bisexual tag". But if the relationship doesn't last, it's proof that you shouldn't get involved with a bisexual guy, because it won't last.

One of my good friends in a bisexual woman. She was in a relationship with another woman for five years, during which time she got grief that she was "really a lesbian". Then the other woman dumped her. My friend was mad, had that period of mourning, and finally took up with someone else about six months later. And since the person she took up with was a guy, people are telling her ex how right she was to dump her, "because she would've just left you for a man anyway".

And I'm sorry - I don't buy this transcending thing. I'm gay, not ubermensch. I expect to be treated as an equal, not as some special group that those who aren't a part of shall never know. I'm attracted to guys, that's all. I don't feel that should be derided OR applauded.

Lex

THANK YOU! Something most gay men don't get half the time.

 

[Apollo]

Not At All. I'm Merely Saying That The Bonds That Exist Between Gay Men Are Not Explained Simply By The Fact That We Have Sex With Other Men. It Is Our Exclusive Desire To Form Relationships With Other Men That Set Us Apart From Bisexual Men. Therefore - As I've Noted - That Which Makes A Gay Man Gay Is Something That Can Never Be Shared By The Bisexual. And If It Cannot Be Shared By The Bisexual "I'm Not Sure How Any Bisexual Can Be A Full Participating Member Of Our Community."

So your saying bisexuals do not want to have serious relationships with a person of the same sex? Only gays and lesbians?

 

[G-Lexington]

>>>It Is Our Exclusive Desire To Form Relationships With Other Men That Set Us Apart From Bisexual Men. Therefore - As I've Noted - That Which Makes A Gay Man Gay Is Something That Can Never Be Shared By The Bisexual.

Sorry, I still don't see the distinction. Or, rather, I see the distinction, but I don't understand why it's necessary to make it. You seem intent on drawing a line where what I see is an arbitrary spot. Is there a difference between gay men and bisexuals? Sure - bisexuals might/can/do have sex and/or fall in love with women, whereas gay men won't/can't/don't. But that doesn't exclude them from enjoying sex with men, or falling in love with men, or forming a lifelong relationship with a man. In short, everything that makes a gay man a gay man. I'm still getting this vibe from you that because they can/do find women sexually alluring, and might/have/will have sex with one in the future, somehow they need to be set apart. Are there "important" distinctions that need to be made? Why not exclusive tops? After all, they only experience physically what straight men do - sticking their dick into something and moving it around. Should an exemption be made for them, as well?

Lex

 

[Apollo]

No - I'm Saying For A Bisexual Man - It Is A Relationship Of Choice.

Why is it a relationship of choice? They were attracted to the man like any gay man and has fallen for the guy.

People don't always choose who they fall in love with.

 

[Swellegant]

^If our communities are only made up of people like us, what good are they? If we surround ourselves with only people like ourselves, we are no better than those who demand that we be like them. Just because one can hide one's true nature and belong to another community doesn't make one any less eligible for the community in which they are their true selves. I really don't understand your point, there.

It always makes me terribly angry when people say "I had no choice." There is always a choice... sometimes a rather limited choice, sometimes a very difficult choice, but everything that you do, from fucking to breathing, you choose to do. It is only what happens to you that you don't get to choose; but then you do get to choose how to react. Sexual orientation happens to you; sexual expression is something you choose. Just as you don't get to choose whether or not you're born, but you do get to choose what kind of person you're going to be, you get to choose if you're good or bad, whether you're helpful or harmful to your fellow man.

Having fewer or harder choices does not absolve you from blame. And those who would oppress us don't want us to have the choices we do have, they want us to conform to their choices or to die. If you choose to accept their directions, knock yourself out. I'm not going to: I reserve the right as a human being to make my life the way I need for my life to be.

And I fail to see how having the option to hide what you are and still get laid makes you any different from someone who has to hide what he is and not get laid. The ability to get laid isn't the important part: being who you are, openly and honestly, is what's important in this world.

I also get very angry when people say "well, that's the way it is, what can you do?" That's a load of bullshit. If we all accepted the way things are without ever trying to make them better, we'd all still be living in caves and hunting mammoths. Social change, like technological change, isn't achieved by sitting and waiting for it to change on its own; it's changed by people saying "Hey, this isn't right," and working hard to fix it.

Society isn't this great god whom we must appease: it exists to protect and serve the people in it. When society does not serve the people, it must be changed... either through revolution or evolution. Fortunately for most of the people involved in this debate, evolution is our aim... or at least bloodless revolution.

In a traditional revolution, traitors and collaborators would be shot.

But now I'm getting angry and that does not add to the discourse; I think, DOUGHBOY, that we agree that people should not be excluded, but I think we are disagreeing on why: you seem to be resting on a lack of authority on your part, and political expediency; I am hammering away at what is right. So long as we're getting to the same place, OK; but I must deplore your methods.

I would like to reiterate that excluding people is what is being done to us. It is the thing we are fighting, and it is the worst kind of hypocrisy to then turn it around and use it on someone else.

 

[Críostóir]

Does It Take A Long Time To Do That?

Not if you paste it into Word and choose Format/Change Case/Title Case. That makes it easy.

It is, however, deeply obnoxious, and some people (including me) just skip his posts for that reason. It's not worth the extra trouble of reading them. It may be possible that he has something worth saying, but if he's going out of his way to make it hard and annoying to read, I'm not going to find out.

BTW, Jasun is correct that it was transvestites/drag queens who started the Stonewall Riots. Some of them may have been transgendered, but while of course transgendered people existed back then, it wasn't a social or political category yet. It was the drag queens who decided to fight back (it was the evening of Judy Garland's* funeral, and they were in no mood to take any shit). Excluding them in order to be more "acceptable" to the mainstream world would be a grotesque betrayal.
____
*If you don't know who Judy was, you are hereby forbidden to sleep with same-sexed people, go to gay bars, or attend any gay event until you have corrected this hideous gap in your education. Yes, that means your Gayness has hereby been Revoked; your Gay card will not be honored at the Seekrit Meatings, your name will be crossed out of the Friends Of Dorothy list in the main Temple of Teh Gay in San Francisco, and the angels will weep for you. You may reapply after you have read her IMDB page and her Wikipedia page, and have sung "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" like you mean it.

 

[2243]

I wasn't really surprised or shocked as many seem to be by the OP. However, after thinking about this for a while, I decided to vote no, only because GLBT is a term that's supposed to represent sexual minorities.


I find that I agree most with Jasun's post on this thread. What defines a "community" is very subjective.

 

[G-Lexington]

>>>Therefore - Whether A Bisexual Pursues A Relationship With A Member Of His Own Sex Or That Of The Opposite Sex Would Seem To Me - To Be - A Matter Of Choice.

I guess, with the weasel word being "pursue". I certainly didn't have to pursue my relationship with my partner, or ANY man for that matter.

I don't think bisexual guys "choose" who they're attracted to any more than you or I do. So instead of looking at genders, let's look at something utterly unrelated - body type. Say you're looking at guys who will date somebody who is fat. I personally will date guys show are skinny OR fat - in fact, my two serious relationship were with one of each. But your position seems to be that since I can be attracted to skinny guys, I can simply choose a skinny one or a fat one at my whim. That ain't how it works. I just date guys of all stripes, one of them clicks with me, and away I go. And I think this is how it works with bisexuals too. They click with somebody - of whatever gender. They don't cherry-pick the gender of who they're attracted to.

Lex

 

[G-Lexington]

If my purpose in posting was to convince Doughboy that my way of thinking is the correct one, and to bring him around to my side, then yes - I think you're correct. This would be a losing battle.

But what makes you think that's my intent?

Lex

 

[G-Lexington]

And I think you're smart enough to figure out what I'm doing.

Lex

 

[Críostóir]

>>>Therefore - Whether A Bisexual Pursues A Relationship With A Member Of His Own Sex Or That Of The Opposite Sex Would Seem To Me - To Be - A Matter Of Choice.

I guess, with the weasel word being "pursue". I certainly didn't have to pursue my relationship with my partner, or ANY man for that matter.

I don't think bisexual guys "choose" who they're attracted to any more than you or I do. So instead of looking at genders, let's look at something utterly unrelated - body type. Say you're looking at guys who will date somebody who is fat. I personally will date guys show are skinny OR fat - in fact, my two serious relationship were with one of each. But your position seems to be that since I can be attracted to skinny guys, I can simply choose a skinny one or a fat one at my whim. That ain't how it works. I just date guys of all stripes, one of them clicks with me, and away I go. And I think this is how it works with bisexuals too. They click with somebody - of whatever gender. They don't cherry-pick the gender of who they're attracted to.

Lex

This is excellent! Good points. Good use of Doughboy's idiotic remarks as a jumping-off point for making them.

 

[Ram]

First we kick the bi and trans out. Then we will kick the lesbians out. Then we will big debate about religion and more people will quit, leaving a majority. Sooner or later, the colored ones have to go. Then we will call ourselves the republican party.

The more divided we get, the weaker we get. I don't care about the stigma surrounding bisexuals or how different transsexuals are from us. They are still sexual minorities, just like us. Like or not, we all face the same type of discrimination.

But I do think the bisexuals and the transsexuals need to form a group to protect themselves from the gays.

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

 

[Apollo]

I Have A Mac. It's All Me. I Don't Use The Crap From MS.



I Remember One Member Years Ago Who Composed His Posts In What I Would Describe As Hieroglyphic-like. They Were Awesome! I Was Probably One Of The Few Who Read Them - If As You Imply Anything Not Conforming To Strict Convention Is Beyond The Mental Or Visual Capability Of Some On This Site - But He Was Highly Creative In Both Style, Prose And Thought. I Miss Him Actually.

urg, I don't want to have to explain to you how MS Word works on a Mac, and is the best Word Processor out there and how iWork Pages can't stack up.

But I won't.

 

[Sha-Rok]

I know a few gay guys take issue with my bi-sexuality. For example my last buddy asked "You aren't just using me until you have another mood swing back to women" or "Who do you like more" It never ends so I stopped disclosing that I was Bi- ...to much insecurity on there part. So I understand the hate towards us.