To all married or divorced guys. Lets start fighting our corner!

[NickCole]

All I'm saying is, he doesn't represent EVERY gay man who is married. My old music teacher WAS wrong by deceiving his wife (of course he was), but all I'm saying is I understand the circumstances which have brought him to this place in his life. I'm not saying I think his actions are acceptable or excusable, I'm just saying I can understand and even relate to him. That's all I'm saying.

I understand, too, Adam.

Maybe even better than you because the situation for gay men has changed radically in the past 20, 30 years and along with those guys I realized I was gay when being gay promised a much grimmer future than today.

I understand why they did what they did. I thought of doing it, too. The most beautiful and popular girl in my college class was my girlfriend Freshmen year. She was crazy about me and I was nuts about her too. Our families got along great. I even really enjoyed making love with her. She was a lovely, lovely woman. But I knew the truth in my gut and I knew what was right and what was wrong. It was a very hard choice, ending that brief relationship, not marrying, coming out, being dropped by friends and some family, moving 3000 miles away to start fresh. You think I don't understand what those men faced? I get it. But doing the right thing is important. And those who do the wrong thing don't get a pass for it after the fun part of taking the easy way out has worn off and the icky part fills their life and the life of those who trusted them.

And there's something else. Back when those men married and others of us came out of the closet, those other guys got a lot of perks in exchange for their deception. We were treated like bastards at a family reunion and they were treated like football heroes. We were all gay but because they lied and we were truthful, they got corporate benefits and we got spit at by Reagan Republicans and hit over the head with placards that read AIDS CURES FAGS. And they didn't contribute at all to the better life that gay men like you have ahead of them -- we did that. It came at a price but we did it. We stepped up. They did not. They took the coward's way out, and a lot of them made it even harder for us because they told fag jokes and brushed aside the devastation we went through with AIDS. I point that out only because it's part of the truth of this. Their wives and children weren't the only ones they betrayed; they betrayed us too. I'm glad those guys came out and I'm eager to open my arms to them and say I'm happy you finally made it. But it's complicated, and that guy coming on here full of arrogant bluster and demands about how he's going to be treated -- well it's very hard to not say you sonofabitch, where was your anger when the love of my life lay dying and I wasn't allowed to go in his hospital room?

 

[NickCole]

I'm not conjuring up justifications!!!!

Ugh just forget I even responded to this thread in the first place.

Sweet man.

Don't sulk.

I'm your friend.

If you disagree with me, tell me. If you think I'm wrong then show me how I'm wrong.

 

[NickCole]

So you have decided that every gay man who was married, married to cover up they were gay???? I am sorry but that is ludicrous!! Again I am not looking for anyones sympathy or Pity. Yes I made the bed I lived in, and I dealt with it as well, my relationship did not end because of my sexuality. I discovered my sexuality because my relationship came to an end. It had absolutly nothing to do with my sexuality.

Then obviously you are not the man I was referring to.

I've been pretty specific about the choices I've admonished in this thread. If those weren't the choices you made for the reasons I described, then you're not among the group of men I'm talking about.

I'm talking about men who knew they were gay when they married, or at least had a gut feeling about it. And I believe you because I've read your posts for a long time and you are a man of integrity, but I won't buy it if all these gay men who married suddenly claim they didn't know they were gay.

Oh yeah I almost forget, do not forget all gay men are feminine and talk with a lisp as well.

Oh Mary, please!

 

[Elwood]

Then obviously you are not the man I was referring to.

I've been pretty specific about the choices I've admonished in this thread. If those weren't the choices you made for the reasons I described, then you're not among the group of men I'm talking about.



Oh Mary, please!

Well that has been my point throughout this hole thread, You can't make a huge generalization that all ex-married gay men are the same or did it for the same reason.

Just like you can't make a huge generalization that all gay men are feminine and talk with a lisp.

 

[luminum]

But I don't think he is. All of his statements are made in the context of married men who are marrying for cover.

 

[NickCole]

But I don't think he is. All of his statements are made in the context of married men who are marrying for cover.

Who?

dodo, the guy who started this thread?

Absolutely.

 

[luminum]

The net result is that our newbie MR. Exploring has disappeared from these boards, like so many married guys before him. And even though I politely asked that advice to newbie married guys in the no flame zone be left to those who have walked in their shoes, the insults still flowed in on Mr. Explorings' posting - kind of like beating a dead horse - dontcha think? I'm sure there was a purpose - perhaps to keep other married guys who are realizing their mistakes and looking for non judgemental guidance from testing the waters of JUB. Go away! You are not welcome!

Currently there are no (recent) postings on the No flame coming out and relationships forum from married guys..... thy work is done! But there is a juicy little number happening that should be of interest for the self righteous so all is not lost!

There is a 21 year old man who is shamefully still in the closet. He's new (just joined) and is asking for advice regarding if he should he come out to a co-worker; since he is alone with the truth inside of him and the co-worker is the only gay man he knows. There are some other little problems that he faces, like his dad is his boss and a young woman was recently hired who clearly has a crush on him.

But the self righteous know better! Clearly the problem is that the young man is not out of the closet! And so far replies to his posts are mundane - go slow, steady the course, ensure you think things out before you create and incident at your dad's business.

But he's not out! and although his simple question is if he should confide in a co-worker the problem is staring him in the face! He's not out! And on so many occasions in the No Flame forum and with threads like this similar situation:

http://justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143185

Something could and should be done about it! May the poster and readers be damned if it's taken totally off the originating topic.

Ah, just when we finally rid JUB of those pesky newbie married guys another "problem" pops up. So gather up your pitch forks, chains and torches boys for there is still more work to be done. I'm not going to provide a link to the young mans thread this time because the thrill of the kill is in the battle itself! But go get him tigers! And on your way back don't forget to swing by the bisexual forum - it's due time for another ethnic cleansing!

Because the problem is that he's in a situation where telling his coworker can lead to complications in the business, which happens to be owned by his father, who doesn't want to know.

What advice would you want to give him? "Yes, tell your coworker. [STRIKE]But don't forget that if he tells and it spreads through the company you could be in jeopardy?[/STRIKE] Wait, forget I said that because it isn't dealing with the problem at hand."

In all of these problems, there is a deeper issue to deal with. The surface issue solution is not going to solve the bigger problem. Why tell someone they can save fifty cents on a five hudnred dollar lightbulb when the two dollar light bulb works just as well?

"Have you considered being out so that you don't have to agonize about who will know and whether or not they'll tell and who will find out?"

"Have you considered shaking off the chains of fear so that you can live your life fear-free at 25 isntead of 10 years down the road?"

These are solutions not only to the small, immediate problem, but the larger one at hand. In effect, they preempt any more of these 'smaller' problems from occurring in the future. You know, "stitch in time, saves nine" and all that?

The same is for people like Exploring, who ask about a problem that can be solved one way (by being given techniques on how to cheat on his wife) or by another (by making sure he'd never have to worry about having to cheat on anyone).

I don't think it's wrong to give people that advice and I don't consider it flaming.

 

[luminum]

Who?

dodo, the guy who started this thread?

Absolutely.

Well, I meant you in response to Elwood. All your examples are talking about men who are marrying for cover, not men who initially married out of love.

 

[mike_n_herrin]

I got your point and here's what I have to say about it.

A gay married man is not the same as being gay or being black or even being a Republican.

A gay married man is a man who's made a decision to lie to the world about who he is. And even more than that, he's decided to lie to the woman who places her most fundamental trust in him, and to lie to his children.

It's a decision to be deceptive to the people closest to him.

that's fair, but it still doesn't give soil or anyone else the "right" to insult gay married men does it? again that's what this thread is about. the insults and put downs and other misc. comments folks seem to make repeatedly about gay married men.

 

[luminum]

Well, I don't think anyone's shunning formerly married gay men, or even shunning married gay men who are actively cheating on their wives. But a lot of gay men certainly don't approve of married gay men cheating on their wives while maintaining their marriage.

 

[luminum]

Of course. If my married friend came out to me, I'd support him. If he felt trapped in his marriage, then I'd encourage him to end it. If he came out to me and wanted to stay married but wanted to cheat on his wife, I'd advise him against it.

 

[NickCole]

Well, I meant you in response to Elwood. All your examples are talking about men who are marrying for cover, not men who initially married out of love.

Ah!

I misunderstood what you meant. (Obviously!)

In that case, thanks -- I'd hoped was getting across what I intended.

 

[NickCole]

that's fair, but it still doesn't give soil or anyone else the "right" to insult gay married men does it? again that's what this thread is about. the insults and put downs and other misc. comments folks seem to make repeatedly about gay married men.

I don't know.

I've started to address that specific point half a dozen times, deleted it and moved on.

I don't know.

I'm not afraid to insult people but I try to be careful about where I direct it.

Soil and I and millions of other out gay men have been insulted by closeted gays all our lives. Especially gay married men. It's an assumption, but judging by dodo's posts I'd bet that while he was living his safe closeted gay married man life, he insulted gays if doing so suited his purposes of hiding and self-denial and deflection.

So if those who've spent the past decades insulting me get a few hurled at them, I'm sorry but I'm not all that concerned about their "rights." Where is their concern about us; more importantly, where was their concern about our "rights" five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five -- all those days and hours we got insulted and denigrated. They were thinking about the same thing then they're thinking about now -- themselves. Always themselves and their "rights."

I'm not interested in revenge and I really would rather sit down and swap experiences, get to know each other. But barging into the room making demands of "rights" and privileges, that just doesn't sit well. As Soil said earlier in this thread, I'm not ready to make nice. I don't want to hurt anybody the way closeted gay married men hurt us, but the "Let's start fighting for our corner" is just too typical of the way too many of them have always behaved towards us. So they shit on us for years and then decide they're ready to come out because it's safer than it was when we did --thanks to our courage and hard work-- and then come on here demanding their rights? But of course that's how some (most?) of them have always been. It's why they cowered in the closet, hid behind the skirts of a wife -- to get those entitled straight man perks because they didn't have, in their gut, what it takes to stand on their own and face life as their authentic self on their own terms.

I don't want to pile on anybody here; as I've said, I understand how hard it was. But I stopped being intimidated by guys like dodo about 30 years ago -- and when you get right down to it, it was him and guys like him who gave us the right to insult him when he blusters.

 

[NickCole]

It's interesting to hear the reasoning behind this and I can respect and understand it on some level, but I just don't feel so strongly about it that I would consciously shun someone for it.

I'm not shunning anyone.

I'm calling out the guys who spent their life lying to people about being gay, causing a lot of damage to people who loved and trusted them, and then come on here crying victim and demanding they be treated the way they say they deserve. The two men I've responded to are arrogant and full of themselves --and they're still self-deluded-- and it's long past time somebody told them the truth.

Gay men who make the kind of choices they made and continue to insist they are victims, and deny the true depth of pain they've caused, are part of the reason so many straight people have bad opinions about gays. Well, I never treated anybody the way those closeted married gay men treated their wives and children and friends, lying to them and betraying them. And although my door's open to just about anyone, I don't bullshit around and pretend a man who's made bad choice after bad choice --that, to society, reflects badly on gays-- just to make his own life easier has been a man of integrity, a man of good character.

Rather than coming on here having a tantrum about his rights, I think a man who's made so many selfish hurtful decisions ought to have a little humility once he's figured out his choice to be deceitful was the wrong choice.

 

[1gayguy]

I don't know.

I've started to address that specific point half a dozen times, deleted it and moved on.

I don't know.

I'm not afraid to insult people but I try to be careful about where I direct it.

Soil and I and millions of other out gay men have been insulted by closeted gays all our lives. Especially gay married men. It's an assumption, but judging by dodo's posts I'd bet that while he was living his safe closeted gay married man life, he insulted gays if doing so suited his purposes of hiding and self-denial and deflection.

So if those who've spent the past decades insulting me get a few hurled at them, I'm sorry but I'm not all that concerned about their "rights." Where is their concern about us; more importantly, where was their concern about our "rights" five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five -- all those days and hours we got insulted and denigrated. They were thinking about the same thing then they're thinking about now -- themselves. Always themselves and their "rights."

I'm not interested in revenge and I really would rather sit down and swap experiences, get to know each other. But barging into the room making demands of "rights" and privileges, that just doesn't sit well. As Soil said earlier in this thread, I'm not ready to make nice. I don't want to hurt anybody the way closeted gay married men hurt us, but the "Let's start fighting for our corner" is just too typical of the way too many of them have always behaved towards us. So they shit on us for years and then decide they're ready to come out because it's safer than it was when we did --thanks to our courage and hard work-- and then come on here demanding their rights? But of course that's how some (most?) of them have always been. It's why they cowered in the closet, hid behind the skirts of a wife -- to get those entitled straight man perks because they didn't have, in their gut, what it takes to stand on their own and face life as their authentic self on their own terms.

I don't want to pile on anybody here; as I've said, I understand how hard it was. But I stopped being intimidated by guys like dodo about 30 years ago -- and when you get right down to it, it was him and guys like him who gave us the right to insult him when he blusters.

Nick, you can't go insulting and arguing on assumptions. After highschool, I was a defender, especially when it came to human/gay rights. I educated myself about AIDS so that when somone said something ignorant out of lack of knowledge, I was able to correct them. Sorry I didn't do it while in high school, I was busy saving my ass from getting ostracised and beat.
Soil said he "wasn't ready to make nice" on a specific set of circumstances after meeting one of his youthful detractors coming out of some kind of gay establishment. What you're doing here no way comes close to that.
No one has the right to insult anyone,period. Not you, not Soil, not freaking Pres. Bush nor the Pope.
Look at my responses in this thread. I haven't asked for sympathy all I've asked for is respect. Everyone on this board deserves respect whether we agree with each other or not.
If you think I'm arrogant, so be it. If you think I'm self deluded, you couldn't be more wrong. It's just that I've moved with my life as have the people in it.
It's called forgiveness that enable us to do this. My former wife forgave me years ago, others in my family accepted me for who I am. My marriage lasted a verys hort time. From the time I met my former wife until the time we divorced was a scant 3 maybe 4 years tops. You may also want to know that it was nearly 30 years ago. So if you think I'm going to beat myself up today for making a misguided decision made that long ago your mistaken. Nor am I going to let you beat me up either, you're no better nor worse than I am. Your opinion of me, some I don't know, who doesn't know me, doesn't matter. I will defend myself, I have that right.
None appointed you the keeper of gay right or wrong. Get off the cross, someone else needs the wood.

 

[NickCole]

Nick, you can't go insulting and arguing on assumptions.

If the men I describe is not you then it's not you.

The men I've described do exist and my opinion of them is as I've stated.

No one has the right to insult anyone,period.

The "right"? Well of course I have the right to insult anybody I want. Just as plenty of closeted gay guys have had to right to insult gay men all they want. Whether or not it's justified, or nice, is another story.

But please already with this "right" to insult nonsense.

Everyone on this board deserves respect whether we agree with each other or not.

No everybody does not deserve respect.

Respect is earned.

Your opinion of me, some I don't know, who doesn't know me, doesn't matter.

That's your choice.

Everybody's opinion matters to me.

I will defend myself, I have that right.

I haven't seen anybody try to stop you, certainly I haven't.

None appointed you the keeper of gay right or wrong.

Never said they did; never claimed that position.

I state my opinion and I explain where it comes from.

Get off the cross, someone else needs the wood.

Not surprising.

I've certainly heard stuff like that before from men who've been closeted -- and now from someone whining about people not having the right to insult. You think "get off the cross" isn't an insult? But it's okay if you do it, right?

But I will point out that nobody ever climbed up and nailed himself to a cross; that's done TO people and then they have to deal with it.

Gay men who marry women are not victims, they are perpetrators of pain. You don't get to slough that off because you don't want to deal with it, the way you did about being gay back when you married.

 

[3nipples]

^^ right on rick4892

 

[luminum]

Wait, maybe this is the problem:

Maybe because some of us have said that men who know they are gay and are also married should end the marriage, we must be "shunning" them and we must "hate" them and be "judging" them.

I'm sorry, but that's not the issue here.

This is equivalent to telling an unhappy drug addict that one way or another, they should stop doing drugs.

Are you gay? Are you married? Are you unhappy keeping this secret? Are you pushed to the point where you cry at night and want to kill yourself? Then maybe the thing to do is let the secret out, end the marriage, and live. Luckily, the person that those final parts are drawn from had the courage to do that, and I can only assume he's better off for it.

Giving someone hard advice is not the same as shunning them, or "giving them crap".

And, I'm sorry Careyeverwood, but my problem with cheating married men is that they're cheating. Who wants to be cheated on? No one. And who wants to be involved with a guy who cheats in general? Not me. Maybe you, though...I happen to enjoy my men unattached and devoted to just me.

My problem with gay amrried men is that they're usually trapped and unhappy, and I think happiness is right within their reach if they would just jump that big hurdle. Everyone deserves to live honestly and free.

 

[mike_n_herrin]

No everybody does not deserve respect.

Respect is earned.

I suppose I believe that is true to some extent. For important things. But not just general manners. if someone is walking behind me when i come to a door i will hold it open for them. i respect them enough as people to do that. it doesn't mean i have to know them or even respect their beliefs or what ever. but it's just good manners to be kind to people when they've done nothing wrong to you.

I don't know.

I've started to address that specific point half a dozen times, deleted it and moved on.

I don't know.

I'm not afraid to insult people but I try to be careful about where I direct it.

Soil and I and millions of other out gay men have been insulted by closeted gays all our lives. Especially gay married men. It's an assumption, but judging by dodo's posts I'd bet that while he was living his safe closeted gay married man life, he insulted gays if doing so suited his purposes of hiding and self-denial and deflection.

So if those who've spent the past decades insulting me get a few hurled at them, I'm sorry but I'm not all that concerned about their "rights." Where is their concern about us; more importantly, where was their concern about our "rights" five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five -- all those days and hours we got insulted and denigrated. They were thinking about the same thing then they're thinking about now -- themselves. Always themselves and their "rights."

I'm not interested in revenge and I really would rather sit down and swap experiences, get to know each other. But barging into the room making demands of "rights" and privileges, that just doesn't sit well. As Soil said earlier in this thread, I'm not ready to make nice. I don't want to hurt anybody the way closeted gay married men hurt us, but the "Let's start fighting for our corner" is just too typical of the way too many of them have always behaved towards us. So they shit on us for years and then decide they're ready to come out because it's safer than it was when we did --thanks to our courage and hard work-- and then come on here demanding their rights? But of course that's how some (most?) of them have always been. It's why they cowered in the closet, hid behind the skirts of a wife -- to get those entitled straight man perks because they didn't have, in their gut, what it takes to stand on their own and face life as their authentic self on their own terms.

I don't want to pile on anybody here; as I've said, I understand how hard it was. But I stopped being intimidated by guys like dodo about 30 years ago -- and when you get right down to it, it was him and guys like him who gave us the right to insult him when he blusters.

this isn't 2000 years ago where an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth is the law of the land. we're above that...or should be. just because someone has been mean to you at some earlier point doesn't give you the right to be mean back to them. it certainly doesn't give you the right to be cruel to others who are like them (i mean gay and married). you are doing the same thing that soil is. you're saying that because someone was mean to you at some point means you can demoralize or dehumanize others who are like them (married and gay) and say mean or hurtful things to them when the individual you are doing it to has done nothing to you once so ever. it's not right. it's not ethical. from our previous discussion here, i know you are a logical and thoughtful person. i can't imagine you saying hurtful things just because you can. you are better than that i know you are.

 

[NickCole]

I suppose I believe that is true to some extent. For important things. But not just general manners. if someone is walking behind me when i come to a door i will hold it open for them. i respect them enough as people to do that. it doesn't mean i have to know them or even respect their beliefs or what ever. but it's just good manners to be kind to people when they've done nothing wrong to you.

Good manners is for making life pleasanter, more comfortable and run more smoothly. In the way I'm using the word "respect" in this context, using good manners is completely different from having respect for an individual.

Me, I respect a person of good character, integrity, honesty, decency, a person who infuses concern for others in decisions. No matter his other choices, I have very little respect for a gay man who marries a woman without telling her the truth and then has children, and then one day tells his wife that what he'd said he felt for her was untrue. Quite frankly, I have more respect for a gay man who marries a woman and then remains married to her the rest of her life. At least that man has fulfilled his commitment to her.

The thing about a gay man who marries a woman and then eventually tells her it was all a sham is he uses her twice. Once because he's too cowardly to be forthright about who he is and at the end because he's too selfish to deny himself men. That shirking of personal responsibility and tricking some unsuspecting person into a marriage of lies and eventual profound pain and grief is only done by someone with weak and smarmy character. I'm not saying a man who makes that mistake can't make amends and redeem himself, but shrugging off the decision to make such a mess of someone else's life is wrong IMO.

this isn't 2000 years ago where an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth is the law of the land. we're above that...or should be. just because someone has been mean to you at some earlier point doesn't give you the right to be mean back to them. it certainly doesn't give you the right to be cruel to others who are like them (i mean gay and married). ... you're saying that because someone was mean to you at some point means you can demoralize or dehumanize others who are like them (married and gay) and say mean or hurtful things to them when the individual you are doing it to has done nothing to you once so ever.

You miss my point. Re-read my posts. I have called out the OP and the other guy for coming on here blustering about fighting for their corner. They have expressed virtually no remorse for the disgusting and horrible thing they did. Maybe you've never experienced anything like that and never knew anyone who did, maybe you're unable to empathize with a pain you've not known -- I'm not like that. I have no trouble understanding how unbelievably painful it would be to have someone I've loved and trusted and built a life with tell me, "I've realized I never really loved you the way I said I did." It reaches back into one's personal history, one's self-definition and the foundation upon which today and tomorrow is built and breaks it apart. Undoes it. Sets off a nuclear bomb into the only thing one knew for sure: one's own life history. This man who said words and did deeds to make her believe he loved her in a very specific and most important way, lied about all of that -- and then as if that weren't horrific enough, he then says you know, now I'm ready to be gay so goodbye and thanks. The betrayal is so profound, so foul and cruel, I'm disappointed to see so few gay men on this forum are upset about it even when a thread is started with such arrogant self-serving entitled blustering about "fighting for our corner."

you are doing the same thing that soil is.

As Soilwork will tell you, he and I have not been friends. Most of the time we've interacted over the years we've pissed off each other. But Soil is a man of integrity, he owns himself, he's honest and forthright and won't let people diminish him or his life. Soil doesn't have a cruel bone in his body and he does not suffer cruelty from others. There are very few sentences that could make me feel more proud than you telling me I'm doing the same thing that Soil does.

it's not right. it's not ethical. from our previous discussion here, i know you are a logical and thoughtful person. i can't imagine you saying hurtful things just because you can. you are better than that i know you are.

That's nice of you to say but I stand by every word I've written on this subject, directed at the men I've directed them to.

I am eager to forgive bad behavior --obviously I'm well acquainted with bad behavior from my own mistakes along the way-- but I have been disgusted for years with the pass some gay men get after they leave their sham marriages and glide into the gay world saying things like oh my god the pain I went through has been so awful, and failing to even acknowledge the much worse pain they put others through.