Undying love for my best friend...please read(long

[RicanDAB]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Bri,

Proly1234 gives a good perspective on it all, and he's new to the thread so it's a fresh objective view compared to those of us veteran posters here (WELCOME Proly!)

Someone's response above mentioned that if you made the effort to meet more guys and develop more local frienships then it would make you feel less lonely and would help support your plan of staying. This is correct. This by no means is to say that your friendship with Andy will be replaced or will get diluted in any way. Andy is in Las Vegas and the best relationship you can have right now is over the phone and online. We as humans need personal contact sometimes and telecommunication will never replace that. You have a great personality and it has enabled you to make so many friends on JUB (and you have inadvertently created one of the most active threads on the board as a testament to this) ... too bad we cannot all be live people for you. But it goes to show you how capable you are of finding and developing very supportive friends.

This said, Andy can still be your best friend but not to the point that you stop making more friends in NYC. My sense is that subconsciously you might be afraid that you will find a friend that would possibly replace Andy or steer you away from Andy in some way. Well, only YOU can let that happen and it does not look like you would. Don't know if my guess was correct or not, but just wanted to express my POV.

Which reminds me - what ever happened to the dog walker you met a week ago??

Also Bri, when I read the following paragraph you wrote I was glad to see that you are realizing what some of us have been seeing for a while:

I mean to be honest, if your very best and closest friend tells you hes gay AND into you, do you keep saying sweet shit to him over and over. Do you spend hours on the phone? Do you keep saying that you cant move on with your life without that gay friend whos in love with you? Not really. In fact what a friend in that situation would normally do, is back off for a bit from the friendship to let things settle. If anything, the situation got more intense.

I remember reading your posts when you were in the closet and it was violently tearing you up inside not having told Andy that you were gay and also in love with him. Don't you see the same thing going on with him now?

BTW, now that you are thinking of staying in NYC ... maybe you should change your user ID to FoundNewYork! LOL... just kidding

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Rican bro- You absolutely read my mind. Thats everything that I have been thinking. Its very odd that you said all of that.

"Someone's response above mentioned that if you made the effort to meet more guys and develop more local frienships then it would make you feel less lonely and would help support your plan of staying. This is correct. This by no means is to say that your friendship with Andy will be replaced or will get diluted in any way. Andy is in Las Vegas and the best relationship you can have right now is over the phone and online. We as humans need personal contact sometimes and telecommunication will never replace that. You have a great personality and it has enabled you to make so many friends on JUB (and you have inadvertently created one of the most active threads on the board as a testament to this) ... too bad we cannot all be live people for you. But it goes to show you how capable you are of finding and developing very supportive friends.

This said, Andy can still be your best friend but not to the point that you stop making more friends in NYC. My sense is that subconsciously you might be afraid that you will find a friend that would possibly replace Andy or steer you away from Andy in some way. Well, only YOU can let that happen and it does not look like you would. Don't know if my guess was correct or not, but just wanted to express my POV."



But I only had one more run in with the dog walker. I met him in a store and held the door for him, he seemed in a rush but said, "Hey Bro thanks". Hey, Ill take it!

Seriously though, thanks for all the great advice. I really do tend to worry about losing Andy as a friend...but like was said...thats up to us to not let the friendship die, and I really believe that wont happen. We have been through hell and back and so many ups and downs that would normally end friendships, that we are both firmly aware that nothing wouldcome between us as friends.

Anyway update ya soon..Brian

P.S.-Yes will definitely have to change my name to a more NYC oriented one soon!

 

[PATMAN]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

I just read the updates over the past few days as I have not been on my computer since Friday. Then for some reason, i felt like reading the first post of this entire thread over again, since its been months. Brian, you posted this almost a year ago, and this one paragraph jumped out at me, specifically this sentance


"we decided to move out there in July of 2004...Soon after he tells me that he has something to tell me and it might hurt me. He told me that in the beginning of our friendship he used me...for money and for some other things..he told me he was telling me this because he sees me as a brother and he wanted to come out with it.."

I had forgotten about this, that it was an issue even at day 1 of the thread, and that he admitted to this. I hate to say this, but since he has admitted to you that he has used you for your finances before, what would stop him from continuing to do it? I was always on the side that he wasn't 'using' you, however when i re-read this, it made me start to think otherwise.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that he has admitted to using you before, and like me probably a lot of readers have completely forgotten about that.
Again, I hope everything works out for the best of course! You guys both need to get happier, the holidays are coming!

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey Pattawa. I just want to go on record as saying Andy does not use me anymore. All that shit is in the past, when he didnt really know me. And when he started to get to know me, he stopped and he actually changed a lot as a person.

He always said when I came into his life, it changed him in many ways..and I showed him that real, nice, genuine people exist, and he stopped doing bad shit.

That being said, I have not spoken to him since Sunday. We will probably speak tonight.

Yesterday I went to bed very early and had such a good sleep, with my Dante laying right next to me...ttyl guys Brian

 

[hanshansen]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Like others here, I’ve come to this thread late and ended up poring over it for hours. I feel compelled to add a few thoughts, if only to get them out of my system – some I know have been made by others, and I apologize if they’re wrong-headed, too abstract or otherwise unhelpful. But I don’t think the underlying issue – which is the uncertainty around what Andy wants - has gone away.

It’s been great to see how you’ve opened up to Andy over the past year, and how your friendship has withstood that and has if anything deepened. I guess I was hoping for greater frankness on Andy’s part, as well, but that’s not been forthcoming. I mean, from the pattern of your posts, even on page 33 of this thread, what you believe you mean to him still fluctuates quite a bit with the ‘latest data’.

As has already been said, Andy’s ambiguity towards you allows him to have the best of both worlds – he gets to have intimate conversations with you without sacrificing his self-image, his fiancée and his friends - whereas you get the stress of his mixed and volatile signals. And if it turns out that he does have deeper feelings towards you (and like others here I lean towards that) he’s not being fair to his fiancée, either. In any case these are ongoing tensions which are at some point going to have to resolve themselves, either by Andy making a credible choice or you credibly moving on.

But I struggle to see how that can happen on a voluntary basis given the current dynamic between you, even if you stay in New York. At least in the short term, Andy is better off keeping things as they are. And you seem to be finding it an effort to move on as long as you have these long phone conversations and he gives you mixed signals.

For these tensions to work themselves out in a way that doesn’t leave your friendship a casualty, I think you need to get him to talk about them openly with you. Of course, you already tried that at least once (in early October, post 1019), but instead of addressing the points you raised, he acted like a jerk, basically blaming you for putting him in this difficult situation in the first place. The end result (post 1023) was that you made clear how you felt about him and he seemed to accept that. He’d managed to deflect the point of the issue, which was to clarify things on his part, not just on yours. Since then, his behaviour towards you has stayed on the same ambiguous level.

I don’t know how I could have gotten that conversation to go any better. I guess it’s necessary to be aware that he is going to go all out to avoid having to confront these questions, and to be prepared for that. And I think that as a starting point, you and he need to work through why he is so reluctant to confront them, and what constraints (mental and actual) he is facing. Of course, if you think those constraints are insurmountable, that makes it easier to move on, regardless of the question of how Andy feels deep down. From his behaviour to you when he’s around his other friends, he’s clearly bad at integrating you into other current aspects of his life. Knowing him as well as you do, what, concretely, would it mean for him to come out to you, and eventually to other people? Would there be anyone to cushion the fall (other than you)? Can you imagine him taking the ‘unsafe’ option in the circumstances, and if so, could you convince him?

 

[backpacker]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brian, please read hanshansen post very carefully. He has done an excellent job of encapsulating your situation. I think your current situation is not healthy for either you or Andy. As hanshansen points out, something needs to change so your friendship will not end up being a casualty. I would suggest you get some help working through the issues as there are so many dynamics to your relationship it would be hard for any one person to work through these are their own. I wish you the best.

 

[RicanDAB]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hanshansen,

That was a well-written and insighful commentary, one I am pretty sure Brian will appreciate reading. I applaud your candid style I found particularly interesting how you nailed down the following so eloquently:

As has already been said, Andy’s ambiguity towards you allows him to have the best of both worlds – he gets to have intimate conversations with you without sacrificing his self-image, his fiancée and his friends - whereas you get the stress of his mixed and volatile signals. And if it turns out that he does have deeper feelings towards you (and like others here I lean towards that) he’s not being fair to his fiancée, either. In any case these are ongoing tensions which are at some point going to have to resolve themselves, either by Andy making a credible choice or you credibly moving on.

I also see that you're new ... WELCOME to JUB!

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey guys, how goes it?

Hansen, welcome to the JUB, and thanks for such an eloquent response.

I have told Andrew many times that when he asks/begs me to come out to Las Vegas, that he ultimately wants the best of both worlds..and that when he says that he really doesnt think about my situation, but pretty much just his. He wants the safeness and comfortable feeling of his girl while having the deep/emotional friendship with me. A perfect balance. What else can I think when he tells me that he cant move on in his life without me? And that he cant function?

I would like to go on record as saying our friendship has stood the test of time, even though we have known each other about 4 years or so. We have been through hell and back, and been through 40x more than most friendships. Our friendship is tight and will never be broken.

It is very odd. I know, because he has told me, that Andy would come back to NYC in two seconds if he was single. I think a lot of times Andy makes his relationship out to be a chore, rather than one of love. He told me a few years ago that in the beginning he was going to break it off with his girl, but since she was already in love and saying it to him, that he was afraid to break it off. That right there tells you a lot. It tells me, whether Andy is gay or not, that he would find it hard after all this time to break up with her. After all they have been going out a while, and he is in a comfortable rut.

Sometimes I sit and think..."Well..what if Andy IS gay?"

And to be honest if Andy was gay, he would have a hard time coming out. VERY hard. For several reasons. One is his long standing relationship with his girl. Another are his friends. And still another is his italian upbringing and all the family and friends he would piss off that he would be gay. There are just way too many things working against him there, of course assuming hypothetically he is gay.

I dont get Andrew sometimes and I must admit it IS tiring. Andy has left me with a whole lot of pain and stress, but a lot of that is me. Me sitting around wondering if it could ever be, and wondering what kind of life we could have had. My love for Andy will always be there a little, even if/when I meet a good guy.

But in an odd way I think now, that Andrew is going through the same stress that I have always gone through. He never went through it before because he had me and his girl in his life. Now that he only has her, I think hes really stressing out. I think on some level he is going through what I have ben going through. He is not only missing me very much, but he NEEDS me in his life. But not as in a "I need friends around me" way, but in a "I cant move on, get married or even have kids" without you here kind of way.

I had a talk with Andrew the other night. I told him I cant wait to find a good guy/partner like he has found with his wife. I told him that whoever I meet will be a nice guy I can take home and that the guy would be lucky because he would be well taken care of the rest of his life. I have to admit I said that on purpose...because a)its true and b)I noticed in the past when I mention this Andy gets down.

In fact the handful of times I have mentioned meeting a good guy and settling down and living care free and travelling, etc...Andrew would get down. His response, always has been, "but what about some of the things we were supposed to do together...we were all supposed to get a house together and live together for a while...and his other response would be "Well at least you will be happy".

Andy knows how alone I am and how sometimes I cant wait to meet the guy of my dreams. Well wouldnt you think his response to me would be one of happiness?? But instead h gets extremely down.

In fact, since I know him well, I know he will be in a deep depression if I ever meet anyone in NYC(his biggest fear he told me) because I think he might get mad that I would have LOVE, the same love I have for him, for another guy. I also think he would be upset that my attentuion would not fully be with/on him anymore.

He told me that he can live with me finding someone out there near him and settling down..but he cant deal with me fidning someone here(NYC) and settling down.

That left me thinking, why? The only answer I could guess is that even if I met someone out there, in a way my attention would still be on him because we would still be near each other.

Within the first 2 weeks of meeting Andy he asked me if I was gay. At the time I was scared so I said no. So early on he must have known I was gay. He said at some point he realized what a great friend he had in me, and that I helped him change his life. He liked the fact that we had the same things in common and liked the same hobbies...he also liked the fact that we were so opposite too, yet got along well.

To this day, as much as I know Andrew, which is almost inside out...I cant figure out if he is gay. If I or anyone else took his actions into consideration(screwing girls, looking and talking about girls, having a fiancee) one would say he is straight. If we would take what he says and all this emotional stuff he says to me into consideration, one would say hes gay. Or maybe, just maybe hes a straight guy who is really in touch with his feelings. Which is a possibility. But he is only in touch with his emotions with me, not even his girl or family. So its odd and confusing.

Sometimes I think that if he was emotional and said all the stuff he says to me to his other friends, they would think hes weak and might even think hes gay. He has told me all the time that when he met me, that he realized that none of his other friends are really his friends...yet hes still friendly with them...why? Because he is comfortable. A running theme in Andy's life I have noticed. Maybe he feels ok to talk to me like that because I am gay and he can get away with being emotional and letting his guard down around me without and judgement or consequences.

He looks at girls on the street. He has a fiancee. All things point to him being straight.

But at the same time...he says shit that no other guy ever says to a friend, especially his gay friend who not only is as close as a brother to him, but also confessed to him that I was in love with him.

It boggles my mind sometimes.

Lately I noticed something about him...and I guess I always noticed this but it was more glaring recently.

Andy cannot talk to me if his girl is around. Andy cannot talk to me when ANYONE is around him. When he calls me or I call him and he kind of short with his words, Ill ask if anyone is around and he will be like yeah. And he will always say Ill call you later when I can talk.

He would say "Bri Im so down and I miss you so much.." And I will say let's talk about it and he would say he cant because his girl is there.

I mean maybe he doesnt want to let anyone know how emotional he can be?? I dont know.

But anyway, I have ben speaking to him on and off..and for about 4 times today. He told me that hes in trouble at work and he MIGHT be fired soon. I asked if hes goofing off or if he has given his boss any reason to say that. He said the boss is an asshole and he heard from a co-worker that the boss has it in for him and a firing might be on the horizon. I told him Im sorry to hear that and to start looking for another one while he still has this one. He was really depressed today.

If he gets fired..he will be screwed royally..he has to start to pay rent soon and that would eb a big blow to him.

I will upate you all soon.

Vegas

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Well I just got off the phone with him. We were on for about two hours.

He was just leaving the Bellagio Hotel and Casino when I called him. I was returning an earlier call that I missed from him.

He was pretty sad. He was there for his co-workers 40th birthday party, and they were at a bar.

Andy told me he ran into a guy who remembered him and wanted to sponsor him for poker.

He seemed still down and I asked why. He said hes realized over the past few months that people in my life mean more to me than money. He said he is not the same person. He said he wished he had some education so other people can see his talents. He also said hes not into poker like he once was..and the guy might even be full of shit.

He said his boss called him and apologized for coming down hard on him.

He said hes very upset with the way his life is going. He said hes living the life of his parents, where they had to struggle even for the simplest thing. He said even with his job secure that hes in trouble in March, because as it is no(rent free) they are barely making it..so once the rent kicks in, they might be in trouble.

I kept talking to him about all the points he said and supported him fully like any friend would do.

He played some songs for me...one was Winds of Change by Scorpion I think and one was a song of his that I liked when I was there in August. He said Im playing there for you bro..I miss you so much.

He stopped off to get cough medicine, and he jokingly goes "See buddy, Im not gay..I have a gag reflex, unlike you gay guys.."

He got home and he told me, "hold on I have to get undressed..."(boy did I get mental images!)

He said everything he just said about being depressed pales in comparison to me and how much he misses me. He said his depression all comes back to me and that he realizes how much of an important part I am in his life.

At this point, very coincidentally(or ironically?) Matt called me to see if I wanted to go X-mas shopping with him in Long Island. I switched back and Andy asked(not angrily) "who the fuck is calling you at 6am?"

I told him and he started to act tired and said he had to go.

We promised to call each other today.

TTYL Vegas

 

[hanshansen]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey Brian,

Thanks for your long and candid reply. Well, you seem to have the situation sized up and sound pretty philosophical it. I still think it’s unsustainable, but it’s good that it’s not giving you as much grief as it has in the past.

You didn’t say how Andy has reacted when you have pointed out the issues to him at other times. Has he continued to change the subject?

I think there is zero chance that Andy is gay in the sense of not being interested in women – so that would always be a difference between you – but I guess the question in my mind was how deep his feelings for you go and how central a place he would be willing to give you in his life. My gut tells me that he does have gay feelings for you. I don’t think it’s just the ability to be emotional with you. I mean, why would he want to be emotional in that way? If he was totally straight, surely he could open up to a straight friend about women, money and other issues. And I guess if he’s not getting fulfilment in his relationship, I would have expected him eventually to be tempted to get closer to other women (and tell you about it). Do you know his history with women before his current relationship? Have you talked to any bi guys about whether his behaviour strikes a chord?

But what do I know, I have been mystified by other people’s sex lives my entire life. This is just speculation. What’s clear is that Andrew needs to find a way out of this triangle. In a way, it’d be kind of ideal (and I think you are hoping that this will happen as well) if either he or his fiancée finally got fed up and broke it off. I don’t know what would happen after that, but it would give you both a much better chance of reassessing things. Trouble is, Andy being what he is, you could wait for some time. But you seem to think that his comfort zone is getting less comfortable. Clearly it’ll stay less comfortable if you stay in NY.

I just saw your other post. It’s great that he seems to have sorted things out with his boss. And he seems to be slowly coming round to the fact that he needs to change a few aspects of his life if he isn’t going to be miserable.

I don’t know if I should say this, I hope it’ll come across the right way. I tend to be pretty dismissive of people like Andy, lazy, irresponsible etc. Why should anyone give them the time of day? But this makes me think of a work colleague who’s a bit of a slacker, a bit immature. I guess he thinks I’m a pointyhead and a bit weird. Chalk and cheese in some ways. But for some reason we click, we’re able to let our guard down around each other and show some of our weaknesses. It’s great to be able to shoot the breeze without worrying about whether what you say is gonna sound stupid. And when two very different people get on like that the nice thing is that there will be some give and take and both of you will find yourself looking at things in new ways. And this is just an ordinary office friendship, it has nothing like the depth and level of trust between you and Andy. So while there are problems, I do think what you guys have is pretty awesome.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey Brian,

You didn’t say how Andy has reacted when you have pointed out the issues to him at other times. Has he continued to change the subject?

What issues?

I think there is zero chance that Andy is gay in the sense of not being interested in women – so that would always be a difference between you – but I guess the question in my mind was how deep his feelings for you go and how central a place he would be willing to give you in his life. My gut tells me that he does have gay feelings for you. I don’t think it’s just the ability to be emotional with you. I mean, why would he want to be emotional in that way? If he was totally straight, surely he could open up to a straight friend about women, money and other issues. And I guess if he’s not getting fulfilment in his relationship, I would have expected him eventually to be tempted to get closer to other women (and tell you about it). Do you know his history with women before his current relationship? Have you talked to any bi guys about whether his behaviour strikes a chord?

I tend to think the same thing. I dont think Andy is gay in the sense that hes totally into men. In fact I dont think sometimes hes even into men. I do think he lacks a lot in his relationship with his girl, in every which way..the sex is boring, shes not the best looking girl(according to him) and she is for the most part, not there for him emotionally. As long as I have known him I think there must have been a handful of times he has slept in the same bed as his girl, much less the same roon. In fact there would be a days and often weeks I would sleep over their house or I would hang out with Andrew so much, that I would think, "when do these guys ever have/make time for sex??"

Andrew, from what he tells me has been with many women. He has bedded women in the same room as his friend Mike..and hes always flirting/looking at other women. I have no doubt hes into women..but when he says stuff like what he does to me..I dont know...sometimes I dismiss it as him just missing his best friend...but other times it seems so much deeper. He has told me before he thinks all people are bisexual and its our life and our upbringing that makes us choose to be gay or straight. So I think at least, sometimes anyway, that at the very most he might be bisexual or open to it. He said he used to have a lot of guys think he was gay in the past, so it seems Im not the only one to maybe have thought it or picked up on it.

Also he said he cheated on his current girl in like the first month of their relationship. He says it was before things got so deep with his girl. I had a huge problem trusting Andy on this area...for some reason I always thought he cheated a lot...way more than he was telling me. His friends didnt help any, as they seem to be the type of people that would enable and condone Andy doing this.I have given up on that suspicion because it makes him mad. I really dont know. I dont know how his girl can be so blind to the fact that shes not there for him...it boggles my mind. If I was his girl, in her situation..I would do everything to be there for him.

In a way, it’d be kind of ideal (and I think you are hoping that this will happen as well) if either he or his fiancée finally got fed up and broke it off. I don’t know what would happen after that, but it would give you both a much better chance of reassessing things. Trouble is, Andy being what he is, you could wait for some time. But you seem to think that his comfort zone is getting less comfortable. Clearly it’ll stay less comfortable if you stay in NY

I dont want Andy to break up with his girl. I really dont. And at the same time I can picture me and him together and how I could provide a much better life for him, one that he wants.Its hard place to be in.

I don’t know if I should say this, I hope it’ll come across the right way. I tend to be pretty dismissive of people like Andy, lazy, irresponsible etc. Why should anyone give them the time of day?

Andy has/used to have a lot of qualities that bothered/still bother a lot of people.

There was the bad things hes used to do in his past. He hurt people, he stole, he used people(even me), he cheated. This is the type of person I would usually avoid.

In the beginning of our friendship..I was madly in love with him. And at the same time he was using me for money. He was the first person/guy to sit down and talk to me..to open up to me about stuff..and to ask me about my life/hobbies...etc. So I think thats why I really fell for Andrew.

At the time I knew I shouldnt have given him money..but I was blinded by my love for him. He was very built at the time...and he would even hang out with me after our -workers would question why he would waste anytime with me..but as time went on we grew on each other...he found out the interests I had were similar to his..and we also were different in a lot of ways too.

He eventually invited me to his apt..and we always used to hang out..and go for drives...and thats where the friendship grew...and he stopped using me..but the thing is I didnt stop loving him.

Andrew eventually opened up to me about using me in Las Vegas...and it was tough for him. He was crying and very nervous. He didnt want to lose my friendship(same way I felt when I told him I loved him).


Hansen...or anyone else...my brain tells me Andrew is straight. Hes very into women. I dont understand him sometimes though. Im the closest person in his life..bar none. Im gay an told him Im into him. Why does he keep telling me all these sweet things then? Wouldnt you think even if he thought to say them, that at least he would hold back...knowing Im in love with him and knowing I might take it the wrong way? Wouldnt any friend pull back?

We are both understanding with each other. I didnt pull out of our friendship when he told me he used me. He didnt pull out of our frienship when I told him Im gay and in love with him.

So basically do you think I just have a very understanding, emotional straight friend whos in touch with his emotions just with me? Because he doesnt open up to anyone else. Is it just that hes getting from me, what hes lacking from his girl?...and Im just misunderstanding it as something more??


Andrew called me an hour and a half ago..like 6:30am in the morning my time.

He said he was supposed to go to a party but he was too distraught. He said he doesnt even care anymore. He walked the Strip all night. He asked me to come back out there. He said he was deply heartbroken. He asked me to get the loan and come back out there. He said hes sick of living like he is. His head is barely above water and when March comes around if anything out of the ordinary happens(car repairs, dog bills) happen it will send him out on the street.

I assured him as long as he knows me he will never be on the street and I wouldnt see that happen to him. He told me his heart hurts so much. He just wants him and his girl to hang out with me and whoever I settle down with. He said he is so heartbroken.

I told him to go lay down on the couch and rest..and Ill just talk and he can fall alseep if he wants. He agrred and I just started talking about things in general an he fell alseep. I told him I loved him and will speak to him tomorrow and hung up.

Vegas

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

I've been with this thread from the start... and have offered a lot of thoughts; but at this point I think I may be all "thought-out". I read all that, and can't think of much at all to say except that either Andy's one heck of a con man or he trusts you a LOT.

 

[RicanDAB]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Vegas,

Not trying to convince you any which way towards my POV re: Andy. But I have in my life known two different heavy-duty masculine, womanizing men (one - interestingly enough - was an Italian from Bensonhurst and the other Puerto Rican) -- who one would never ever peg as anything other than straight -- break their silence and come out as gay and settle down with another man. One of them has been with his partner for about 15 years and the other I lost touch with but last I heard he was happily partnered for about 4 years. And these guys never lost their masculinity and can still pass as straight! These guys never met each other by the way -- I met them under two different circumstances back in my "straight days" for lack of a better term.

The common thread with them from their own mouths is that they got tired of hiding and trying to subconsciously "get rid" of that desire in the back of their head for guys so much that they were overcompensating with a lot of sex with women.

Will this happen with Andy? Only time will tell whether he is one of these or not. For me, a straight man who gets on an even deeper emotional level with his gay friend after his gay friend proclaims love for him and is in a hetero relationship that is on threads sexually and otherwise is a NEW animal for me to know. I can only conclude that he is deeply closeted and his fiancee is his social safety blanket from the cruel reality of gay discrimination until he musters up enough strength to decide that he can handle it, at which time he'll release the lock on the door and bust it wide open. So, in essence - it will take me a lot of observation and conversation before I rule out GAY on any straight man - especially when I know how much I went through to hide and deny myself.

My point is that gay men are a very diverse group of guys. Some are more obvious in mannerisms to everyone than others (though some effeminate men are straight ). Some closets are sealed shut like crypts while others are left ajar or even have screen doors!

Forgive me if I cannot recall this from your previous posts: Did you ever meet and hang out with Andy's straight friends? I know he never made an effort to integrate you with them as most guys would - he clearly made efforts to keep you guys exclusive parts of his life. Even though you are straight-acting, maybe he was afraid that your being gay would come out during a conversation subtlely with your inability to identify with something socially accepted as straight (e.g., you as the only one silent when the group as a whole cat-calls a pretty female along the street -- heavy duty sports talk -- etc.) which would then result in his friends narrow-mindedly assuming "gay by association" which to him at this point might be a complete nightmare.

Also on a little curious personal note, have you ever kissed Andy and has he ever kissed you back? I don't mean porno-tongue or lip-peck kisses ! Have you ever kissed each other on the cheek during a hug? This is a tough call if you say he did since Italians are passionate enough to do this with friends anyway (and that is not a Sopranos stereotype) - but would he still / continue to do it to a friend who has proclaimed love for him?

Ok, that is my take on this Sunday morning! Gotta go!

 

[hanshansen]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

What issues?

....

Very briefly before I'm off to work, these issues, Brian:

I have told Andrew many times that when he asks/begs me to come out to Las Vegas, that he ultimately wants the best of both worlds..and that when he says that he really doesnt think about my situation, but pretty much just his. He wants the safeness and comfortable feeling of his girl while having the deep/emotional friendship with me. A perfect balance. What else can I think when he tells me that he cant move on in his life without me? And that he cant function?

And below they appear again:

Hansen...or anyone else...my brain tells me Andrew is straight. Hes very into women. I dont understand him sometimes though. Im the closest person in his life..bar none. Im gay an told him Im into him. Why does he keep telling me all these sweet things then? Wouldnt you think even if he thought to say them, that at least he would hold back...knowing Im in love with him and knowing I might take it the wrong way? Wouldnt any friend pull back?

I mean, when you mentioned his ambiguous behaviour to him at one stage, and asked him to stop, his response was pretty bad. I was curious how he responded the other times. It just sounds as if he never gave you a frank answer, and I'm trying to think how he consistently managed to avoid doing that. I think this is important.

Anyway, could be days before I have another chance to look at this board. In the meantime take care.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hansen, have a good couple of days!

When I told him about having the best of both worlds, he swears its not true..he also swears that hes looking out for the best of me too when he tells me to come to Las Vegas..he tells me all the time I was the most happy I ever was when I was out there with him..he also says he was the most happiest too.

As far as the sweet things he says..the closest I ever came to talking to him about that is the time I told him that "the things you tell me, you should only be saying to your wife or your girl...not anyone else.." His response was "well you are a big part of my life. how am I supposed to treat you?"

Anyway have a good week, ttyl..Vegas

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey guys.

I spoke to Andy on and off the past few days, the last being a couple of minutes ago.

We got onto the topic of gay sex...and he asked is it true that two guys really just get it on, without hesitation...and go straight at each other and just fuck.

I said for the most part yeah..and hes like damn thats pretty cool. He asked me whats the longest I been with someone and I told him a few hours and I also told him sex and men is always on my mind 24-7. He said whoever I end up being with is going to be in trouble, becasue they would be in for it all the time sexually.

He goes "Well what if you meet someone who's not into sex all the time..would you cheat?"

I told him no..and hes like ok. I can only imagine that hes describing his situation, but anyway.

I told him that I would tone it down if I met someone who was not into sex 24-7. I also told him that with gay guys its not all about sex and sometimes you want the talk, the friendship, the LTR. And he told me that I would make a great boyfriend and husband for whoever I meet.

We also started talking about a friend of his that might be bi or gay.

The whole talk got me fucking hard lol..and he said "I bet your getting hard"

I told him that I had to go..he goes "Go shoot your load and give me a call later bro"

Fucking hot, and I did just that.

And I will speak to him later tonight...lata guys..VEGAS

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Good to hear of a conversation that was positive all the way through!

Andy's talk makes me wonder again, though -- is he curious?

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Dont know...dont know. He said he wouldnt care if his friend is bi or even gay...I hope his friend is gay(hes got a 10 inch cock according to Andy).

Anyway Andy seems very open at least about talking about gay shit, so who knows.

He jokingly said to me "Oh now that your getting ass, you dont need me anymore.."

I jokingly said back, "yeah of course..."

Vegas

 

[Kyanimal]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

I think, don't really know for sure, that most people hear the word "Gay" and immediately think "Butt Sex"! They don't realize, or even maybe care, to expand their limited knowledge of what "Gay" truly means. They do not comprehend the enormous Vastness of a completely sensual, caring, all-inclusive, no-limit/boundary, sharing, relationship between two people of the same sex! All they "know" is "fudge packers", etc., etc., etc. And, it seems as though Andy has the same concept!

Perhaps ... just perhaps ... if You might be able to expand his horizons/expectations, of all the LOVE, that is right at his fingertips, He might be able to Fully SEE what is, obviously, available to Him with YOU!

He may be searching to Understand! He doesn't KNOW the full extent of what He's, obviously (to "Us") feeling with YOU already! He IS asking!

If You could only help Him understand ... that He is 90% of the way there ... maybe, just Maybe, His closet door would swing open a tad more.

Andy is "afraid" on many levels. Just because He doesn't really "Know"! Talk about the Sex part, sure ... but also ... and more importantly ... emphasize all the "Rest", too!

He seems to be just as "skittish", as Everyone else, about what may be "expected" physically. If only You might be able to expand His "expectations"???

Hoping this makes some sense! ....

Keep smilin'!!
Chaz

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Wow -- reading all this time and never posted?!! I don't have that much willpower.

Good insight, here: "[Andy's] trying to wrap his head around what the heck a relationship is with 2 guys."

Hang in there, Bri!