Undying love for my best friend...please read(long

[Kulindahr]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

And those consequences would be....?

Were they stated, or assumed?

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

He knows all of this has been taxing on me financially and emotionally. He knows that not only does he have to pay me back, he needs to get going. He needs to get a job by Feb 1st or he has to come up with rent. I already told him I cant help him because I will be using my money on my apt and fixing it up.

He knows not to mess up my friendship. He knows how close we are and how close we always will be. In the end thats what we value most in each other.

Andy helped me in ways that no one ever has. He helped me out of my depression. He did a lot of things that most do not see or have not seen, so its easy to judge him.

TTYL Brian

 

[trawler69]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brian, I pray for your friendship and I pray that your money is repayed, I really do. But I fear for the worst, and pray that I am wrong.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

I appreciate all the concern...I can understand the worry since you guys dont fully know him like I do. He will pay me back and also some of the other money he owes me.

He is not a user and is not using me. But again, and I do mean this, I appreciate the concern and all the support given. Thanks!! Brian

 

[JackFTwist]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brian, I pray for your friendship and I pray that your money is repayed, I really do. But I fear for the worst, and pray that I am wrong.

no matter what you say, Vegas, this is the prayer and fear of many of us

 

[hanshansen]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Have only just seen these latest developments ... while I can't say they are what I hoped for, what's done is done and after having trawled through so many of Brian's old posts last weak, I find myself agreeing with his fairly hopeful view of the situation (well, 80 per cent of me does! After all this entire thread is his version of events). Andy has, I would say, the habits of a user, but he has also shown on a quite a few occasions that he values this friendship a lot, and so long as he realises what he is doing, I would be very surprised if he put this friendship at risk. And Brian has, it seems, finally made fully clear to Andy what he is doing, what it means to Brian and how serious this is. That was a huge and important step. So I think the incentives for Andy to get his act together are actually pretty strong (hope he has the strength to follow through, though!).

Anything more concrete, as in quasi-contractual - I don't know, in a way it would have signalled that Brian has given up and that the friendship is effectively already over in some sense.

Brian, all that said, I would start spending some money on that apartment, so that if the time comes you can honestly say it's already committed! Good luck, anyway.

 

[backpacker]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brian, as so many pointed out before making the loan, giving him the money is actually hurting Andy. I was really disappointed that you decided to continue enabling him. The thing you need to realize is that when an enabler relationship exists, not only does the person being enabled have a problem, the enabler also has a problem. This situation is very similar to the person who keeps buying drinks for an alcoholic. They know deep down that they are hurting the person, but they keep doing it. Maybe they need a drinking buddy or need to feel needed. You really need to figure out why you need to enable Andy. It has nothing to do with Andy, but rather some issue that you have. I suggest you get some counseling before you do any further harm to yourself or Andy.

 

[hanshansen]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Let me indulge myself and provide a bit of personal context to what I've been saying (I know, I like hearing myself talk ...). The story will probably sound laughably trivial, but it wasn't to me. When I was younger, at university, I was 'enabled' or indulged by a lot of kind people who regularly let me extend deadlines and (I believe in some cases) gave me grades on the basis of a good reputation that I had built up earlier. What ended up happening was that I found it almost impossible to work through any project in an orderly way and on time. (Partly that was because I was keeping very irregular hours and spending a lot of my time posting to internet message boards, so I need to be careful about getting into that habit again!) I survived in that way, more or less, for a couple of years, until I failed or dropped out of several courses in a law degree I was doing, and ended up dropping that degree entirely. By this time I had already spent 5 years at university (incidentally, as you might expect for an enabled person, my parents fully funded my entire education). I come from a family of high achievers and believe me, for me this was hitting 'rock bottom', I still feel sick thinking about it.

I guess the relevent question is how I pulled myself (or was pulled) out of that hole. The three key points would be (a) that it has been a very gradual and effortful process with a lot of setbacks, but (b) flunking that law degree was the last time that I was allowed to let myself fail or 'declare bankruptcy', and (c) while people have continued to cut me a lot of slack, their willingness and ability to do so has gradually diminished - once you enter the professional world there just isn't that much room to move.

I have had an amazing amount of luck. In the end I got some good grades in other subjects (my parents continued to pay for that), on the basis of this got a good job, and I was also given the opportunity for further study (fully funded by the employer), which I eventually completed. I was only able to get through these things because in each case, people have still given me an amazing amount of slack, extending deadlines etc. But in contrast to earlier times, I do not see this slack as having been 'enabling', but as helping me adjust (without it I would probably have failed repeatedly, given the state I was in). The reason is that it was very clear how far I could push the limits, and cutting my losses was not an option either - it was totally expected that I would have to finish the job to a good standard, although there might be flexibility around the edges. There was nothing hard and fast about this, but I knew with certainty that there were bounds outside which no-one 'would understand', and that was incentive enough for me. I would say it's in the last half year that I've 'turned the corner': I've now worked through a couple of projects where I felt I knew how push myself and stick at a problem, did a pretty good job and didn't feel a sense of inferiority in front of my colleagues. My manager has been increasingly 'hands-off'.

Brian, this is where I'm coming from. I believe Andy has reached 'crunch time'. But as you say, he is going to have to pay that loan back in full. Give him extensions, give him support, let him give you installments, but do not forgive that loan.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Just wanted to pop in and say Merry Christmas to all the JUBers who celebrate it. I hope you have a good one. I am heading out to my folks beach house for a day and a half I will be back tomorrow night, and I will post some updates(long and stressfull week...yes because of Andy).

Talk to you all soon...hope you left the cookies and milk out!!!

B R I A N


'Twas the Night Before Christmas...In Brooklyn


'Twas the night before Christmas, Da whole house was mella,
Not a creature was stirrin', Cuz I had a gun unda da pilla.


When up on da roof I heard somethin' pound, I sprung to da
window, To scream, "YO! Keep it down!"


When what to my Wanderin' eyes should appear, But da Don of
all elfs, And eight friggin' reindeer!


Wit' slicked back black hair, And a silk red suit, don
Christopher wuz here, And he brought da loot!


Wit' a slap to dare snouts, And a yank on dare manes, He
cursed and he shouted, And he called dem by name.


"Yo Tony, Yo Frankie, Yo Vinny, Yo Vito, Ay Joey, Ay Paulie,
Ay Pepe, Ay Guido!"


As I drew out my gun And hid by da bed, He flew troo da
winda And slapped me 'side da head.


"What da hell you doin' Pullin' a gun on da Don? Now all
you're gettin' is coal, You friggin' moron!"


Den pointin' a fat finga Right unda my nose, He twisted his
pinky ring, And up da chimney he rose.

He sprang to his sleigh, Obscenities screamin', Away dey all
flew, Before he troo dem a beatin'.


Den I heard him yell out, What I did least expect, "Merry
Friggin' Christmas to all, And yous better show some
respect!"

 

[RicanDAB]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brian,

MERRY CHRISTMAS to you too! Thanks for the hilarious poem .. and try to enjoy the holidays stress-free!

Rican

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey what's up guys? Hope your Christmas holiday was cool.

I got at my parents for Christmas. I got several calls from Andy on X-mas Eve...I walked Dante by the beach and he loved it. Andy called some more.

While I was doing last minute shopping he called me to tell me his tooth was killing him and he was in so much pain..(he had a long history of pain with that tooth, but he has no insurance so he never went) So he asked me if he could use some of the money I gave him for his tooth..I told him to just go, why is he just spending hours in pain..to go get it fixed...and he did for 250 dollars.

Eve came and went and I started to get sick, so I wound up staying at my mom's house for about three extra days. My parents' loved having me back as you can imagine...they felt like they had their son back..they even begged me to come back and live there. I kindly said um no lol.

They both fell in love with Dante. I mean they have seen Dante over the years but never really spent so much time with him. And Dante was real cute...they gave him a doggy X-mas stocking which he ripped open and spread all his toys everywhere and was playing while we were unwrapping our gifts.

I called Andy Christmas Eve and his girl picked up...yapping on for abou 15 minutes. I was really not interested in talking to her at all. She said Andy was in the shower..and said Andy's friend had come over and was hanging out with them for X-mas...sometimes I think she mentions all this to get under my skin. She knows how me and Andy are torn up about no seeing each other for the holidays.

Andrew called me the next few days almost 24-7. We talked about how down were were, etc. On Christmas Eve Andrew was oddly mad at me for some reason. He made a comment like, when are you coming out here so I can see you? I told him I would see him soon. He asked when I am coming out there to live...and I said I dont know. I told him it seems like our lives are moving on in different directions...and then he dropped a "Well I hope you are coming to my wedding in June..."

My heart felt crushed . I mean I knew this day would come but it just hi me hard. He said its going to be June 15 and at some small restaurant and that her folks are paying for it. Oh....and its in NYC.

The next day he brought his wedding up again..and I told him, rather selfishly, that I really dont even think I can come to the wedding, that Im not happy with it. I know...a dumb thing to say...an he took it bad, and got down.

Before I made my comment he was talking about how picking his best man was difficult because if he picked me(liked he promised me several times) that other people would be jealous and not understand anything..I told him to go with his heart and do what he feels like..so it got me mad a little that he was worried about other people's reactions to me...

That night he told me he was just angry and going through shit and he didnt mean to say any of that. He kept professing to me his problems saying how he cant live without me..and cant move on without me..how his girl is dull and his other friends never want to do the simple things he lieks to do. He said everyone seems to be a fake out there.

I told him that I wanted to go see a therapist in the new year as I have problems of my own and wanted to talk to somone. He goes you dont need a therapist, you can talk to me, etc. He said so what, you have a few extra pounds...so what?...You are still in love with me...so what???? I have BIGGER problems....

So Im thinking, what the hell does he have thats bigger than that ..after pecking at it, he just mentioned the same shit. How he cant live without me, etc. I told him to look foward to his wedding and hes like fuck that shit, Im not even involved in planning any of it..I dont even care anymore. Im numb and I dont give a shit.

The next day we talked more about therapy and he said the same thing...Brian your in love with your best friend, big deal...I have bigger problems.

I finally came home..and I was able to talk to Andy a little better without anyone hearing me. We talk and talk and talk. He tells me the same deep shit.

Our talk eventually goes to songs, entertainment, etc. We just talk and talk...gay shit comes up..we talk about Nick Lachey....Jessica Simpson....etc.. He goes what I wouldnt give to have those lips around my cock...I go who Nick Lachey??? Hes like BRO!!!! Jessica Simpson you ass...and then he starts to say how he doesn't like that because he is homophobic...I go bro..no offense..I dotn think you are homophobic....you talk abou gay shit with me all the time and your best friend....your brother i gay. So whatever. You are not homphobic I tell him. In fact a few minutes earlier in thecall, before he said this, he told me how cool it was to have a gay best friend and how we can talk about anything.

He said he wants to come home to NYC. He realizes he cant live without me and now wants to come home. He moves into his new apt Friday and he doesn't want to stay there another year. He now OFFICIALLY wants to come back home.

I talked to him about therapy once again..and he goes...Brian do you still have those felings that you used to have...and I go what do you mean? He goes I dont even want to bring it up, but you know what I mean...anyway he kept going on and shit and just got me down and I said I had to go..Ill talk to him soon.


TTYL-Vegas

 

[hanshansen]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey Brian,

happy New Year. Glad you had a good time (except being sick) at your folks. Above all, it is so great that Andy has decided to move back to NY.

I've been thinking ... how on earth can you make that wedding less painful. Look, as I've said before, I've never been in this kind of a friendship, but (or maybe as a result) reading your posts (particularly the emotional high points with Andy - seeing him off to Vegas, seeing him again in Vegas, some phone conversations) was a very emotional experience for me. Putting myself in your shoes, what would scare me shitless about Andy getting married would be the idea that it would put a final period under those kinds of experiences - you would both have to move on which would either mean transferring some of those feelings to other people (so that there would never be that intensity ever again) or all of it (which would feel like a betrayal of each other and the past). My view is that that needn't happen. In a funny kind of way, I actually think that Andy is sort of on the right track. He has always said you guys are like blood brothers. At one emotional moment I think he said he loved you like he would his own child. Now, I don't have any siblings and I haven't been in a sufficiently serious relationship to force me to radically rethink my relationship to my parents, but I do know that these family relationships are lifelong and they can stay very deep, even as people move out and get married and set up their own lives. The reason is that everybody thinks of a blood relationship and a husband-wife relationship as radically different things, so they are not in competition with each other and can coexist. I don't see why a very close friendship with a long history is any
different. The problem is that you have got used to the idea of Andy as a potential lover, which means you will be tempted to compare yourself to his girl, and any potential partner for you to Andy. 'Moving on' means getting over that temptation. I don't mean to say that it's anything but hard, but what I'm trying to do is narrow down what needs to happen and suggest that the benefits could be major, even from your current point of view. (If you manage it, a side benefit would be that you would be better placed to help Andy work through that he is really not too keen on this marriage going ahead. At the moment you have a conflict of interest.)

On a really wide tangent (and I don't mean too much by it), what I just said reminded me of some of those Japanese movies by Yasujiro Ozu, about really close family relationships (especially parents and children) where both parents and children are terrified that marriage by the children (or remarriage by a parent) will break that bond that they had before. They are really good movies, but very sad. Of course, in reality, most people integrate their family lives better than that.

Andy sounds pretty threatened by the potential competition from a therapist . His comments about whether or not he should make you his best man are pretty incredible. To be fair, he is in a whole lot of messes (failure in Vegas, unsupportive family, committed to a girlfriend he feels lukewarm about, no education, probably feels trapped in general) and the way your life is going must look wonderful to him in comparison ...

Anyway, my feelings aren't yours and as usual I could be wildly off base -

 

[RicanDAB]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey Vegas, glad your holiday went well with your family .. sounds like you relaxed a bit. Thanks for the update. I had to pick out some of your post and comment on it in parts.

On Christmas Eve Andrew was oddly mad at me for some reason. He made a comment like, when are you coming out here so I can see you? I told him I would see him soon. He asked when I am coming out there to live...and I said I dont know.

Doesn't he realize that after all the money you are loaning him you might NOT have the money now to visit? Sorry to say, but he's being a little selfish. And since you've made up your mind to stay in NYC, why not stand your ground on it with him so that he stops asking?

The next day he brought his wedding up again..and I told him, rather selfishly, that I really dont even think I can come to the wedding, that Im not happy with it. I know...a dumb thing to say...an he took it bad, and got down.

It was not a dumb thing to say, and I would say the same thing in your situation. You were being honest and that is admirable of you. Why would you go to a wedding where you would have to keep up a facade for hours on end? You're only causing yourself more grief by doing that. Weddings are supposed to be happy occasions and you don't want to be the downer of the party. Additionally, I can see him trying to get you to cheer up during the event and who knows, last straws can break.

Before I made my comment he was talking about how picking his best man was difficult because if he picked me(liked he promised me several times) that other people would be jealous and not understand anything..I told him to go with his heart and do what he feels like..so it got me mad a little that he was worried about other people's reactions to me...

Again, I am on your side on this one. After all you guys have been through, you being his best man is a no-brainer. And since he can't make up his mind about the issue, be the bigger man and make up his mind for him. And you said you might not go to the wedding in the first place, so isn't this moot? You're not happy with this wedding to begin with - and if you play the best man, think also about all those pictures that you'll have to be in with the wedding party and the strained smile that will forever be memorialized as the guy who does not want to be there .. and doesn't the best man arrange the bachelor party (which undoubtedly sounds like Andy would want) ... and how does a gay man arrange a hetero bachelor party with a straight face (no pun intended) much less participate in it? In essence, with regards to Andy's wedding you are not "the best man" and you know this. Best to put this doubt to rest in his mind.

I told him that I wanted to go see a therapist in the new year as I have problems of my own and wanted to talk to somone. He goes you dont need a therapist, you can talk to me, etc. He said so what, you have a few extra pounds...so what?...You are still in love with me...so what???? I have BIGGER problems....

So Im thinking, what the hell does he have thats bigger than that ..after pecking at it, he just mentioned the same shit. How he cant live without me, etc. I told him to look foward to his wedding and hes like fuck that shit, Im not even involved in planning any of it..I dont even care anymore. Im numb and I dont give a shit.

You HAVE been talking to him and what has been resolved - nada. You're smart and mature to have decided to look into therapy. He does not understand what you are really going through. You already know what his "bigger" problems are. Why would a "straight" guy not look forward to a wedding with his longtime fiancee? He would obviously rather be with someone else, and if he has not fancied any other female to replace his finacee for truer happiness - then who?

He said he wants to come home to NYC. He realizes he cant live without me and now wants to come home. He moves into his new apt Friday and he doesn't want to stay there another year. He now OFFICIALLY wants to come back home.

If he's so gun-ho now about returning to NYC .. why keep harping about you moving out there to Las Vegas? I can understand now why all this fickleness from him is getting you frustrated.

I don't know if this helps you out Bri ... I just wanted to post comments that came up in my head when I read this.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Yeah I wont be going out to Vegas anytime soon..in fact the next time I will see Andy will most likely be at his wedding, if I do decide to go.

He knows why Im not looking foward to it...because when I said I wasnt looking foward to it and didnt want to go...he never questioned why....I think he kind of just knew.

I certainly dont want to be a downer at their wedding...and with the slap in the face of not being his best man...there really doesnt seem to be any good reason for going. I say that and I know it sounds bad..the fact that Andy has met someone he wants to share his life with should be a happy time for his friends too...but its hard.

I will probably go..considering its in NYC..that way I could go and leave at my will....if it was in Vegas that would be a little harder.

He called me 2 times today....and considering how the talk ended last ngiht..Im not too much in the mood to talk to him.

Vegas..

P.S. I was reading Time Out New York and saw this ad in the back..and I went on the website....its an organization that gets gay guys together socially...not in the bar scene..and not cruising for sex...this is for single or coupled gays to meet and hang out with other gay guys socially in sports/dinner/volleyball/trips etc....in fact you have to go down for an interview to even get in...the more i looked at the site..the more I liked it...for those interested(and I dont think this organization is just in NYC) the web site is www.urbanoutings.com

PS-2- No Im not a shill for the website and have no connection to it...I do want to go down for an interview in the next month or so....and for the moderators if posting that website was against forum rules Im sorry..please remove it at your discretion, as I dont mean to cause any bad feelings.

 

[JackFTwist]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brian, you send this guy money when be asks, he never repays, he insults you by not having you as his best friend while he swears his undying love for you but he can't mak anyone else jealous, and anyone says something critical of hium, you defend him and he shits all over you and you excuse that -

you are an abused spouse/friend and you are an enabler. You assist in your own abuse and destruction. This is not unique to you. But you really need out of this soap opera, out of these cycles of abuse, and have a life fre from this guy and his hold on you. I really suggest some hard core therapy and ending this whole thing totally and absolutely.

You'll say no and be mad at me and be hurt that I said what I said but how long is this thread, how long has it gone on, and everyone likes you too much to say you are an enabler and you have to got to just cut off this shit and get on with your life for your own sake.

The choice is yours, to be free from pain, or keep enabling the pain.

Do the therapy. Liberate yourself.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Jack, thanks...hope all is well with you.

Yeah Im definitely doing the therapy thing...and while I dont want to liberate myself from our friendship....I do want to liberate myself from the pain it has caused. Im naive. Im an idiot. Im an enabler. Im hopeless. And just about 100 other adjectives. I know. I want it to end too. Pretty soon I wont post here, I just thought for the time being I would, just to vent and stuff...I know people are tired of reading it and reading my endless/going in a circle type posts.

I went out to the store. For maybe 20 minutes. I get back to find two messages and caller ID telling me he called 17 times. I picked up the next time he called, and while I wasnt cold to him at all really..I just wasnt outwardly/overly friendly like I always am with him..leading him to think something was wrong. I just didnt want to get suckered in to caring too much. He told me he is down and I feel his pain. But I didnt turn into nurturing mode. Im trying to distance myself a little. Im trying to make friends....definitely seeking out therapy...I would say those are good steps no??

I still want to be friends with Andy...his talks sometimes blur the line between friendship and relationship. He is fully aware of my thoughts for him and yet he constantly tells me he cant live without me. Im tired of trying to figure it out. I fully intend on moving on with my side of things, even if he decides to move back to NYC.

If me and him ever get into it...I will tell him Im saving all of my energy for someone that can finally love me back the way I give out love. And that I deserve it. And that while Im always here for him as a brother/friend..hes got his wife to get support from.

VEGAS

 

[RicanDAB]

Re: Urban Outings

P.S. I was reading Time Out New York and saw this ad in the back..and I went on the website....its an organization that gets gay guys together socially...not in the bar scene..and not cruising for sex...this is for single or coupled gays to meet and hang out with other gay guys socially in sports/dinner/volleyball/trips etc....in fact you have to go down for an interview to even get in...the more i looked at the site..the more I liked it...for those interested(and I dont think this organization is just in NYC) the web site is www.urbanoutings.com

PS-2- No Im not a shill for the website and have no connection to it...I do want to go down for an interview in the next month or so....and for the moderators if posting that website was against forum rules Im sorry..please remove it at your discretion, as I dont mean to cause any bad feelings.

Hey Bri,

I know about Urban Outings ... and I did go to an interview with them when I lived in NYC. I was looking for the same thing that you are looking for. Sure, you get a lot of information and the trips and events and they all sound good. But be aware that there is a cost attached to the membership. If I remember correctly the cheapest membership is a bronze I think @ $1400 which entitles you to a certain number of events per month and allows you some free passes for friends to use (which is also I am sure another way to get their leads) - and other membership plans silver and gold I think -- go into the $2k and 3k ranges. Plus you have to factor in that some events also have some low fees attached to them - like wine tasings and the dinners out and the trips.

I am not saying this is a bad organization at all. It is legit and the interview was with a nice (and cute BTW) guy who presented everything in a non-pressured manner. It really was interesting and I would have done it myself if I had the extra cash and if I was not moving out of NYC within the following year. Not saying you should not go ... certainly go to the interview and get a cheap thrill at the possible cute interviewer but just wanted to give you a heads up on the deal.

 

[RicanDAB]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

If me and him ever get into it...I will tell him Im saving all of my energy for someone that can finally love me back the way I give out love. And that I deserve it. And that while Im always here for him as a brother/friend..hes got his wife to get support from.

This is wonderful ... good to hear that from ya.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Urban Outings

Hey Bri,



I am not saying this is a bad organization at all. It is legit and the interview was with a nice (and cute BTW) guy who presented everything in a non-pressured manner. It really was interesting and I would have done it myself if I had the extra cash and if I was not moving out of NYC within the following year. Not saying you should not go ... certainly go to the interview and get a cheap thrill at the possible cute interviewer but just wanted to give you a heads up on the deal.

Well that sucks....see how naive I am?...I never even thought that there would be a huge price range like that. I really cant afford that now or even soon, and thats sad..I was actually looking foward to it and even mentioned it to Andrew already. Oh well...thanks for the heads up.

 

[JackFTwist]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Jack, thanks...hope all is well with you.

Yeah Im definitely doing the therapy thing...and while I dont want to liberate myself from our friendship....I do want to liberate myself from the pain it has caused. Im naive. Im an idiot. Im an enabler. Im hopeless. And just about 100 other adjectives. I know. I want it to end too. Pretty soon I wont post here, I just thought for the time being I would, just to vent and stuff...

VEGAS

Bro,

I do want to liberate myself from the pain it has caused. Im naive. Im an idiot. Im an enabler. Im hopeless. And just about 100 other adjectives.

All true of me in a past relationship. Glad you are doing the thrapy. Keep posting at JUB, you are loved and cared for. I called you out on the enabler thing - it takes one to know one, I've been there, and I known how hard it can be to say no, and get libeated to have my life back. So I am with you all the way, know that, as so many here are and have been a lot longer than I have. Look at the people who all love you and stood by you and care for you. Use that for your strength and keep posting here!