What is a 'gay man?', an article I'm writing

[Lube]

Those guys are not straight, no matter what they call themselves. They just try to pass as straight.

My name is Lube and I approve this message.




Just trying to throw in some election-ish humor. Seriously, I agree with what you said there.

 

[Lube]

It bothers me every single time someone makes a judgment about me without knowing me as a person.

Do you not get why that would bother someone?

This isn't about anyone saying "being feminine is wrong." If someone who knew me, saw characteristics in me that they thought were feminine, good for them making that speculation. I don't care. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with being feminine. If you are, wear it on your sleeve with pride.

But pigeonholing me into categories without even knowing me is the problem. Can you not get that?

Life doesn't care if things bother you. (Not trying to be mean here, just realistic.) Life just is.

You have to learn to separate what you want to happen, from what really happens.

Lube, you've even started doing racial profiling via stats. I don't give a damn if it's about TV shows. You really don't want to go there, and I'd advise you not to open your mouth about such things to your friends IRL.

You're equating racial profiling with an educated guess. It's simply an educated guess.

I think it's hilarious that this entire time, you've been casting your opponents in this argument as insecure people that must really hate themselves, when (thus far) the argument of yours I have the most problem with is your hateful assumption that anyone with a sensitive side couldn't possibly be straight.

Every single person from any walk of life has a right to be judged by their own actions and not the actions of the folks they're associated with.

Perhaps I go a little overboard to try to counter those people who say that people who say they're straight must be straight, thus there must be lots of sensitive straight people because they say their straight.

What I'm trying to do is to get people to question your assumptions. Don't take everything in life at face value. Life isn't that simple. If it took you 20 years to come out, maybe there are people who never come out. Maybe your father's gay or your cousin or friend. Or maybe not. But don't assume someone's straight just because they say they are, and don't use closet cases as proof that straight people act a certain way.

Because there are millions of closet cases and guys in denial out there. And yes they're your friends and relatives. Aren't you someone's friend and someone's relative? Weren't you closeted at some point? You're not the only gay in the village (or the only one in your family).

 

[fetaby]

What I'm trying to do is to get people to question your assumptions.

And the way to do that is by making assumptions of your own? Nice.

 

[gsdx]

You have to learn to separate what you want to happen, from what really happens.

And you have to learn to imposing your beliefs on other people. They aren't simple opinions like, "I think broccoli is good for you" or "I'd never go to Paris in the summertime". They are characteristics and personalities that you are imposing upon people - people you don't even know. You are telling us that you know us better than we know ourselves. You are calling us liars because we deny what you tell us.

You have to learn to separate what you want to believe (no comma necessary) from what really is.

You're equating racial profiling with an educated guess. It's simply an educated guess.

Sorry, but you need more education. You are profiling all gays with your interpretation of gay qualities.

Now, unless your name is God, please stop trying to make us in your image!

 

[Jersey Domino]

Doesn't it seem like we're going around in circles here?

 

[gsdx]

Doesn't it seem like we're going around in circles here?

Not really. Most of us are standing still. A few are running around us trying to steer us in directions they think our lives should be heading.

 

[Dduder]

When you attack us with constant 'factual' statements which are not true when applied to us, do you expect us to be all nicey-nicey and invite you over for tea? Do you not even consider your attacks to be ad hominem? (And 'no', I didn't even have to look that one up. I knew what 'ad hominem' meant many years ago!)

Dude, are you out of your mind? What attack did I do to you? I simply said that on average, gay men are less masculine than straight men. Which is true. I never said that you are effeminate(I don't even know you), nor did I claim that all gay men are effeminate. Stop putting words in my mouth. You are taking this way too personally and you have done really nothing to dispute my original claim.

 

[Dduder]

Not a hissy fit at all. I very calmly expressed just as factual an idea as the crap you're spewing.

Thanks for playing.

You are a highly immature and emotional child who is incapable of having a rational debate like a grown up. You hate the message, so what do you do? You attack the messenger instead of addressing the message besides just claiming that the message is "stupid" and that's it. Your child-like mind probably explains your Superman avatar. Lmmaooooooooooooooo.

 

[2008spike]

What is a gay man?

A gay man is a different gender of humans, a combination of male and female genders. Gay men aren't men, but they aren't women, either - we gay men are in a class of our own. This mixture is simply a natural occurrence in nature, and all part of the diversity of life. Gay men can't go away or 'stop being gay' because, we are just a part of nature. And we were born with brains and body chemistry that are a mixture of two genders, observe any gay man and you can see how obviously true this is.

gay men are usually born with:

A female's heart, female emotions

more sensitive than other males, whether this is in a 'receptive way' or a projecting way, ie the macho bully archtype, gay guys let things 'get under their skin' more than most ppl.

A sex drive that's exactly like a straight man's, ie we like nasty throat fucks and spit and hot nasty sex for sex's sake stuff

The possibility to be just as macho as straight guys, but obviously it's not as pure, even if a gay man is good at sports and masculine-stuff, he still almost always knows how to write well and do gender atypical stuff.

Enjoy tv shows like charmed, buffy and xena, and stuff about superheroes. Enjoy lifetime television.

Great aesthetic eye for fashion and visual stimulants. Being addicted to pornography is common, as well as higher increase for drug and alcohol addiction and all forms of addiction.

Understand ideals very well, and philosophy and psychology. Natural brain for that sort of stuff. Not as good with mechanical stuff, generally.

Higher level of intuition, empathy, creativity. Lower levels of violence and aggression.

Isn't as adventurous as straight men, doesn't 'explore' a lot, unless it's for a sexual thrill. Prefers stability and peace. Great at making music because 'getting lost in one's own introversion' is great for making music, as well as writing.

Sure, gay men may have a lot of masculine qualities, and we do- but we also always have a lot more female qualities in us, unlike regular men. This is natural and explains why gay dudes love being taken care of and 'swept off our feet' like women do.

((Straight guys don't talk about their feelings all Oprah-like like gay men do, sorry they just don't. they are tougher, because they are more man than you- but this shouldn't be viewed as a negative thing either. Gay guys are just DIFFERENT, and that's OKAY.))


Therefore it's pointless to get defensive over stereotypes since stereotypes are based on truth. However, it is hurtful when people mock gays because they are exaggerating our natural girlishness. this can be funny but at the same time nobody likes to always be the joke, so instead of getting all emo about it tho, just do it back to straight guys. =)

Dont do a smiley face and think you can get away with this.

 

[Dduder]

And you have to learn to imposing your beliefs on other people. They aren't simple opinions like, "I think broccoli is good for you" or "I'd never go to Paris in the summertime". They are characteristics and personalities that you are imposing upon people - people you don't even know. You are telling us that you know us better than we know ourselves. You are calling us liars because we deny what you tell us.

You have to learn to separate what you want to believe (no comma necessary) from what really is.




Sorry, but you need more education. You are profiling all gays with your interpretation of gay qualities.

Now, unless your name is God, please stop trying to make us in your image!

I agree with you that Lube's tendency to claim to know everything about everyone he never even met in real life is very annoying. He certainly has no right to tell you that you have feminine qualities since he has never met you in person. Nevertheless, I am in agreement with his claim, that on average, gay men have more feminine qualities than straight men. Anyone with two eyes and a working brain can see that.

 

[geloge]

^ Since everyone have their own opinions on what is masculine and what is feminine this discussion have non sense. By the OP's standards we are all half women, by yours most of us are feminine. But they are just your opinion, not a fact.

I'm bored yet of all the shit that this thread has brought

 

[gsdx]

No one watches hockey.

*runs away from Canada*

I hate hockey. No need to run from me.

 

[Dduder]

^ Since everyone have their own opinions on what is masculine and what is feminine this discussion have non sense.

What? We certainly don't all have an opinion of what is masculine and feminine. Masculine = pertaining to the beavior of men. Feminine = pertaining to the behavior of women. Most people would say Rambo = masculine, Quentin Crisp = feminine.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but 99.9999% of the World's people don't think the average gay men is as masculine as the average straight men otherwise gay men wouldn't be considered girly when compared to straight men. You may disagree but most people don't. Since masculinity is to some degree subjective, then ad populum count here to establish what is masculine and what is not and most people don't regard gay men as masculine as straight men. Even gay men themselves regard straight men as more masculine evident in that gay men fantasize about typical straight men and not typical gay men. Straight-acting anyone?

Also, if we define masculinity as being aggressive, competitive and domineering, then I can objectively say that straight men are more masculine than gay men since straight men score above gay men on these categories. Not just an opinion, but a fact.

By the OP's standards we are all half women, by yours most of us are feminine. But they are just your opinion, not a fact.

No, the OP and myself are saying the same thing: that gay men on average tend to be more feminine or less masculine than straight men.

 

[Dduder]

Oh shit. I think I just outed myself as a straight man!

It is amazing how callous and also cynical you people are. You understand perfectly what I mean, but pretend that you don't then twist my words and come up with retarded strawman arguments because you simply can't debate the claim I make.

 

[gsdx]

What's so wrong with hockey? Do you only hate hockey because someone might think it's masculine??????

No. I used to watch it when I was a kid and they actually played hockey. I stopped watching it when it became a boxing match on ice. I don't enjoy sports where the players would get arrested if they did what they do on public streets.

 

[Dduder]

Guys, I am really not in the mood to argue. I am going through major trauma in my life. I have just recently been diagnosed with peripheral sclerosis which is pretty damn serious given that I am only 22 years old. I will just let you believe whatever you want. Even typing this is hard for me. I dont even know how I am going to finish medical school with my disease.It really is not that important. In the end we are all Humans looking for happiness. I hope you all find the beautiful masculine men you dream of and live happily ever after.

 

[StlKj]

Guys, I am really not in the mood to argue. I am going through major trauma in my life. I have just recently been diagnosed with peripheral sclerosis which is pretty damn serious given that I am only 22 years old. I will just let you believe whatever you want. Even typing this is hard for me. I dont even know how I am going to finish medical school with my disease.It really is not that important. In the end we are all Humans looking for happiness. I hope you all find the beautiful masculine men you dream of and live happily ever after.

On this issue, in this thread, I maintain my opinion of your stance.

But you're deadly cute, you're sometimes funny when you're not being what I perceive to be as a homophobe, and I wouldn't wish what you're going through on anyone.

I do wish I could hug you now. I wish you weren't going through this. Mostly I just wish you well.

 

[altlover85]

You might openly express your feminine side, but I (and many other gay men) don't have one to express.

Picture it. Canada, October 2010. A young man celebrated his 59th birthday 2 days ago. He's lived in Canada his whole life (so far) and, for his whole life (so far), he has been gay. In all those 59 years of life, this young man was asked only once if he was gay and that was only because an upstairs neighbour noticed the ratio of male visitors (very many) to female visitors (considerably fewer).

That young man was me. People who meet me don't know I'm gay unless I chose to tell them.

I don't act gay, nor do I act straight. I don't act at all. The only thing I do is be myself.

(Special thanks to Sophia Petrillo.)

You are totally masculine, but you like to quote "The Golden Girls"? Really?

Even forgetting the subject matter, you can't tell this guy is gay?

No, I'm not talking about the subject matter. Turn the volume off. Just watch it with no audio.

You already know Jason is gay. You are looking for qualities that would make him gay, which you generally equate with feminine, so you are more likely to see and spot feminine behavior.

I saw a few feminine mannerisms, but really no more than what I've seen in most guys in general.

I am a member of a war discussion board(armchairgeneral) and all the guys there are uber straight and have avatars of naked females. I am not aware of any member who is gay, but maybe there are. But given the fact that when all the guys there aren't discussing the great battles of history or hypothetical fights between armies and generals of history, they are talking about fucking vaginas and how to get vaginas to fuck, I find it unlikely.

When in a macho enviornment, it's unlikely that these men would suddenly say "Guys, I got fucked by the hottest guy last night."

Jasun is a good example. He's masculine, sure, but he has a gay boy valley girl voice....that is quite common in gay men. Now some gay men have very straight, masculine voices. But they are gay in other ways!

And virtually all gay porn has guys who are womanly in many ways, and certainly obviously *definitely* more effeminate than straight males, no matter how much they develop their masculine sides.

You seem to be equating gay with feminine, which I don't feel is accurate. Having a mixture of masculine and feminine traits (or even being effeminate) doesn't mean someone is a woman.

I don't know what porn you watch, but a lot of the stuff I watch doesn't have womanly or effeminate men in it.

But they didn't like men: they were primarilly attracted to women, and many of them were actually womanizers, and their interests besides women were teenage boys who were skinny, pretty and hairless like females.

They were called "kinaidos", were exclusively homosexual, effeminate and attracted to manly men, and usually worked in the theatre of other aesthetic pursuits - like modern gay men. They were completely different from the typical pederast, who was usually a military man and womanizer who also liked 16 year-old boys and found the idea of having sex with other men repulsive.

If you like cock exclusively, you're gay. If you like cock and vagina, you're bi.

You just don't get it. Are you still insisting that all gay men bear feminine characteristics? If so, then I, for one, am not like 'them'.

You like The Golden Girls. That's a feminine characteristic.

 

[StlKj]

You like The Golden Girls. That's a feminine characteristic.

WTF? My masculine, straight father watched Designing Women every week and laughed. Didn't make him a woman.

 

[altlover85]

Until I ask him if he watched it or not, I won't assume he has. Simple.

Buying into the media hyped stereotype and then expounding it as gospel, as has been stated, is obnoxious.

I think the issue partly is that NaughtyArousal got upset at the idea of someone even asking him if he watches Glee. It seemed like a bit of an overreaction.

Which brings up the point of; Are gay people more feminine or just alloud to express a feminine side society has deemed heterosexual men banned from showing? Being gay means a different set of rules and a different culture, gay guys do not have to impress women, nor straight males. This means the pressures to par-take in male orientated activities are not there, leaving them to seek out a wider range of activities without worrying about being judged or reducing there chances of getting a girlfriend. The 'metrosexual' craze has shown us that when straight males are given the chance to break out of the male mold there are quite a few takers.

You suggest that gay people part take in there activities and the way they are because they're gay and you'd never catch a straight guy acting in similiar fashion, but chances are more straight guys would participate in these activities if their masculine society would allow. Its not necasserily genetics that are in action, just good old fashioned conforming to social norms, straight guys forcing themselves to forgo anything that their friends would deem "girly" or "sissy" so they can better fit into the fold.

I think you've made an excellent point.

You are a highly immature and emotional child who is incapable of having a rational debate like a grown up. You hate the message, so what do you do? You attack the messenger instead of addressing the message besides just claiming that the message is "stupid" and that's it. Your child-like mind probably explains your Superman avatar. Lmmaooooooooooooooo.

I thought you didn't do ad hominem attacks because they are immature. And yet now you are doing them and calling someone a child. Something doesn't compute.

Also, if we define masculinity as being aggressive, competitive and domineering, then I can objectively say that straight men are more masculine than gay men since straight men score above gay men on these categories. Not just an opinion, but a fact.

No, the OP and myself are saying the same thing: that gay men on average tend to be more feminine or less masculine than straight men.

I think the issue people have with you is that you sometimes say "gay men on average are x" but then other times say "gay men are less masculine than straight men". I think people want you to acknowledge that what you say doesn't apply to all gay men and I think they want you to say that every time you speak of gay men. I think it's because being precise with language is a pain in the ass. I know it is for me.

Whereas you want to sit there and say every single sensitive person is gay or just a closet homosexual, because straight people are boring and insensitive, you never took the time to imagine that even some of those straight, macho, insensitive guys are also closet homosexuals, did you?

No, because you don't want them to be.

I don't think he's ever said that.

But these are guys that I know to be straight surely as you know that every single male that has ever watched Glee is an obvious homosexual.

He never said that either. In your words "fail".