What is a 'gay man?', an article I'm writing

[altlover85]

WTF? My masculine, straight father watched Designing Women every week and laughed. Didn't make him a woman.

Having a feminine trait doesn't make you a woman.

 

[altlover85]

What I'm upset with in this discussion isn't the idea of saying that all gay men have feminine qualities. I'm upset with the notion that the OP set up (that all men are instantly like women) and Lube's quick agreement and continuing with the notion that being gay means to exhibit mostly feminine qualities, which later calmed down to "more feminine qualities on average" and that to be straight and exhibit any of these is to be closeted. It's a bit outdated.

I think perhaps Lube is reacting to the notion that some closeted men have of being masculine and thinking no one knowing that they are gay. He may overgeneralize it a bit, but the point is, those guys do exist, especially in places where it's NOT okay to be gay. In places like NYC, I think you see more of a variance of different tastes and such. I think some of these closeted guys would be out, if they were in a more relaxed environment.

How can you tell who is closeted? You can't with 100% accuracy, but some of the traditional tells are more associated with feminine qualities. I think there's also the "gaze" tell, where someone holds your gaze too long.

If something works even 70% of the time, I could see it being seen as more reliable, especially in something like telling if someone is in the closet, which is not an exact science at all.

I pulled 70% out of my ass, BTW, but I think it's a reasonable guess.

You would think with the burgeoning awareness of trans men and women, people would understand the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. It's pretty basic, really.

I think awareness of trans issues is pretty limited.

But what I find so silly is the idea that we can choose to make any straight guy with feminine qualities a closeted gay man, yet we can't do the same with a straight guy with mostly masculine qualities. Lube's biggest point seems to be that closeted gay men are everywhere. I agree with him. I think far more closeted guys are out there than many would expect.

The thing is, Lube is using simplistic stereotypes to decide who. Failing to understand that the most naturally masculine homosexuals out there are the ones who have had the least pressure on themselves to come out. And when they're greeted with nonsensical stereotypes like these, are they really rushing to kick the door? Probably not.

I think the stereotypes do have some degree of truth for some gay men, but not all. But that goes back to LordBootylicuous idea that society doesn't put as much pressure on out gay men to be masculine as it does to other men. In a way, the link with femininty may be partly a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I also agree that the stereotypes are not helpful to the most masculine guys.

 

[altlover85]

He said "straight men don't have this sensitive side." When I suggested opposite, he was quick to imply that they weren't really straight. I actually find those words hateful. That a man who loves a woman could not be sensitive.

Whereas you want to sit there and say every single sensitive person is gay or just a closet homosexual, because straight people are boring and insensitive, you never took the time to imagine that even some of those straight, macho, insensitive guys are also closet homosexuals, did you?

I disagree that he said the bolded part.


More people and their Black and White worlds. Jesus Fucking Christ...[/QUOTE]

I should have said if you like cock and vagina equally or almost equally you are bi.

I don't see how you can argue that if you like cock exclusively, then you are not gay.

 

[altlover85]

I would hope that awareness of trans issues aren't too limited here on these boards. Nor the concept that there is a broad difference between orientation and gender identity.

Relating to NYC, I moved to NYC because there's variance. The silly sort of one-sided stereotypes I'm reading in this thread are just the types of things I simply do not want in my life.

A friend of mine has been called faggot before plenty of times because he doesn't eat meat. The type of people that called him that are just plain ignorant for doing so. Lube's comments are on the same level of ignorance, though it's obvious he's not trying to be hateful when he says them.

I understand your trans comment better. However, you are making an assumption about the gay guys here, just like you don't want others to do about you.

I don't see saying that most out gay guys have feminine traits is the same as calling someone who is vegan a faggot.

I don't understand being gay, but only being attracted to masculine qualities. To me, that would make you bi. Why not go out with a masculine women as well as men, if you don't care about the cock part?

I don't think of guys liking she-males as being straight personally.

 

[StlKj]

Having a feminine trait doesn't make you a woman.

It's just as silly a statement as saying liking a particular show makes one feminine.

 

[altlover85]

It's just as silly a statement as saying liking a particular show makes one feminine.

He said he had no feminine side. I'd say a show that was about four women's lives is feminine. I would say liking that show means you have a feminine side.

 

[StlKj]

He said he had no feminine side. I'd say a show that was about four women's lives is feminine. I would say liking that show means you have a feminine side.

And I'd say you're wrong. So yeah, we will have to agree to disagree.

And with that, I'm done with this thread, I think. This thread isn't about exploring the meanings of masculine and feminine--it's about opinions stated as facts without proof. It's about stereotyping gay men in large part. And it smells a little like self-loathing on the parts of others.

 

[altlover85]

I think the ignorance involved in the comment is the same, regardless of the lack of venom.

The ignorance in what comment?

We're getting off the topic with the other discussions (which may be a good idea at 400 comments deep), but I'd say it's possible to be attracted to the male body structure without specifically making it all about the penis. In the "Trans Men are hot" thread we clearly lusted after these men we knew didn't have penises. They were still men, though. Most definitely.

I thought they were sexy, but the lack of a penis would have made it a no-go when it came time for the actual sexual act.

I'd rather ask someone what they like than "Are you gay or straight?"

I can understand that.

And with that, I'm done with this thread, I think. This thread isn't about exploring the meanings of masculine and feminine--it's about opinions stated as facts without proof. It's about stereotyping gay men in large part. And it smells a little like self-loathing on the parts of others.

I love how stating that some gay men like feminine things is self-loathing, but saying I have no feminine side, is okay for some people.

 

[Lube]

^That made me lol too. I think what people are forgetting is that every single person on this earth has some qualities that others would interpret as feminine. (That includes you too gsdx).

What I'm upset with in this discussion isn't the idea of saying that all gay men have feminine qualities. I'm upset with the notion that the OP set up (that all men are instantly like women) and Lube's quick agreement and continuing with the notion that being gay means to exhibit mostly feminine qualities, which later calmed down to "more feminine qualities on average" and that to be straight and exhibit any of these is to be closeted. It's a bit outdated.

Plenty of straight guys laugh at signs of hyper-masculinity. The idea that they have to be "tough" or can't show affection without being gay. The same things that posters on this topic are expecting to identify the only masculine men are things plenty of straight guys I know couldn't give two shits about.

You would think with the burgeoning awareness of trans men and women, people would understand the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. It's pretty basic, really.

On the term of closeted guys, deep down, we truly don't know who is in the closet, what thoughts have been had by what person. I believe in Kinsey anyway, so it's a moot point. There are a few that are probably in the middle somewhere that are happy with women anyway and haven't cheated.

But what I find so silly is the idea that we can choose to make any straight guy with feminine qualities a closeted gay man, yet we can't do the same with a straight guy with mostly masculine qualities. Lube's biggest point seems to be that closeted gay men are everywhere. I agree with him. I think far more closeted guys are out there than many would expect.

The thing is, Lube is using simplistic stereotypes to decide who. Failing to understand that the most naturally masculine homosexuals out there are the ones who have had the least pressure on themselves to come out. And when they're greeted with nonsensical stereotypes like these, are they really rushing to kick the door? Probably not.

Based on your comments in this post, I'd say we agree a lot more on things than you think.

 

[gsdx]

No. I used to watch it when I was a kid and they actually played hockey. I stopped watching it when it became a boxing match on ice. I don't enjoy sports where the players would get arrested if they did what they do on public streets.

Ah, that wasn't a serious question.

So what? It was a serious answer.

 

[gsdx]

You are totally masculine, but you like to quote "The Golden Girls"? Really?

I watch Golden Girls because it makes me laugh, and it reminds me of what television comedy used to be. That doesn't make me feminine. It makes me realistic. There hasn't been anything worthwhile watching on network television since Frasier and Mad About You went off the air.

The topic of discussion here is gay behavioural stereotypes - swishy walk, limp wrist, high female 'queeny' voice, the 'gay' lisp'. Think 'Chris Crocker'. I don't exhibit any of those things. I never have and I never will.

I'm far from masculine, and I have never claimed to be that. Hell, even Mr. Efron is more masculine than I. I am a man who does not display female behaviours as being ascribed to me by several posters in this thread even though they are 100% positive that they could pick me out of a crowd simply by observing my behaviour and listening to my speech, that my 'femininity' would betray me, and I'm telling them they're full of shit.

 

[StlKj]

The ignorance in what comment?



I thought they were sexy, but the lack of a penis would have made it a no-go when it came time for the actual sexual act.



I can understand that.



I love how stating that some gay men like feminine things is self-loathing, but saying I have no feminine side, is okay for some people.

That's not what I was referring to in regards to self-loathing. There--done.

 

[gsdx]

He said he had no feminine side. I'd say a show that was about four women's lives is feminine. I would say liking that show means you have a feminine side.

I've done a lot of thinking about this statement and I have decided that you have mistaken a 'gay stereotype' (gay men love The Golden Girls) with a 'feminine gay stereotype' (gay men love The Golden Girls because they're females at heart and secretly want to be women, whether or not they're willing to admit it to themselves).

They are two entirely different things. I can exhibit gay stereotypical behaviour without exhibiting feminine gay stereotypical behaviour.

I don't know you personally. I don't know anyone here personally. I don't know anything about you or your personal life or behaviour or personality other than what I read in your posts. I wouldn't dare make assumptions of your personal life based merely on stereotype. What makes you or anyone else think you can assume to make assumptions about my personal life?

Thank about that. (And that includes everyone else who insists that I and others here closet queens. Suck it up. You Are Wrong!)

 

[gsdx]

Homosexuality is not about rolling out of bed one morning and needing to put on pink leg warmers and glitter.

Uh oh. . .

But only once! I swear!

 

[gsdx]

It is perfectly normal for a young woman to explore lesbian sex, it should be equally OK for a man to do so.

It's perfectly normal for guys, too, especially when puberty hits and the hormones start doing their thing. It's almost natural for guys to explore these new feelings with a close male friend. They're less likely to admit it, though.

Even in adulthood, it's not really unusual for straight and/or married men to 'experiment' with male/male sex. I can't count on one hand the number of straight/married men who chose me to experiment with and (here's a little secret) over 50% of those guys actually reciprocated orally.

Funnily enough, not a single one of them exhibited a single feminine quality.

 

[altlover85]

I watch Golden Girls because it makes me laugh, and it reminds me of what television comedy used to be. That doesn't make me feminine. It makes me realistic. There hasn't been anything worthwhile watching on network television since Frasier and Mad About You went off the air.

It's not a show I associate with masculinity. The subject matter and everything else is feminine. There is something about the show you identify with.

The topic of discussion here is gay behavioural stereotypes - swishy walk, limp wrist, high female 'queeny' voice, the 'gay' lisp'. Think 'Chris Crocker'. I don't exhibit any of those things. I never have and I never will.

I'm far from masculine, and I have never claimed to be that. Hell, even Mr. Efron is more masculine than I. I am a man who does not display female behaviours as being ascribed to me by several posters in this thread even though they are 100% positive that they could pick me out of a crowd simply by observing my behaviour and listening to my speech, that my 'femininity' would betray me, and I'm telling them they're full of shit.

I would say you do have a feminine side of some sort. This overt denial seems bullshitty.

I've done a lot of thinking about this statement and I have decided that you have mistaken a 'gay stereotype' (gay men love The Golden Girls) with a 'feminine gay stereotype' (gay men love The Golden Girls because they're females at heart and secretly want to be women, whether or not they're willing to admit it to themselves).

I never said that they secretly want to be women. I think gay men can identify with straight women because we both like men and have to put up with their shit.

I don't know you personally. I don't know anyone here personally. I don't know anything about you or your personal life or behaviour or personality other than what I read in your posts. I wouldn't dare make assumptions of your personal life based merely on stereotype. What makes you or anyone else think you can assume to make assumptions about my personal life?

I admit you could have been one of small percentage of men who doesn't have a feminine side. And then you quoted The Golden Girls, which some (me for instance) would see as feminine.

Thank about that. (And that includes everyone else who insists that I and others here closet queens. Suck it up. You Are Wrong!)

I never said you were a closet queen. I'm saying you have a feminine side. Deal with it.

I like sports, cars and movies where stuff blows up. I am not interested in romantic movies or novels unless they include vampires or other mythic creatures, and I am not too concerned with lathering on a ton of makeup and products before I leave my house. I watch porn, gay porn specifically, and I have a fetish that makes even the men I talk to squirm on occasion.

That in itself does not make me masculine. It makes me genuinely built differently than some of my female counterparts.

It also does not make me a butch lesbian. I have an open mind and I have given a lot of thought to whether or not I like women sexually. I truly don't. When I think of sex, it is with a man. When I need pleasure, I am looking for dick.

But according to the stereotypes in this thread, those characteristics would make me a straight man, wouldn't it?

If I read that description and didn't know you were a woman and had to guess if you were a man or a woman, I would have assumed you were a man.

But I'm not. I truly am, a woman. I have the vagina and 34D breasts to prove it.

So what makes a gay man gay?

Plain and simple. His desires. Homosexuality is about wanting to be with someone of the same gender. Homosexuality is not about rolling out of bed one morning and needing to put on pink leg warmers and glitter.

I think if anything, stereotypes are flawed and with limited usefulness.

 

[altlover85]

How about "we watch it because it's funny"?

I don't watch Jackass or Living Single or Titus or Wanda At Large because i want to "be" one of the characters. I watch them because they make me laugh. The subject matter may vary; the context in characters, however, is universal.

Everything we do does not need to have an underlining masculine/feminine context behind it; those that think so are stupid.

Jackass isn't the same type of show as a scripted show. I never said you want to be any of the characters. I said you identify with them. It's not the same thing.

Everything doesn't have to have masculine or feminine context, but to deny it in things that have it seems intellectually dishonest to me.

 

[gsdx]

I never said you were a closet queen. I'm saying you have a feminine side. Deal with it.

I didn't point you in this direction for you to insult me with this bullshit. You're as bad as the others here who insist you know me better than I know myself. Whatever the hell all of you think, stop imposing it on people to who it has no bearing and about whom you know less than nothing.

Not everybody shares your feminine behaviours and qualities! Deal With It!!

 

[altlover85]

I didn't point you in this direction for you to insult me with this bullshit. You're as bad as the others here who insist you know me better than I know myself. Whatever the hell all of you think, stop imposing it on people to who it has no bearing and about whom you know less than nothing.

Not everybody shares your feminine behaviours and qualities! Deal With It!!

You can choose to take what I said as an insult. Saying that someone has a feminine side is not an insult to me. Clearly we aren't going to agree with each other, so I'm done talking about this with you.

Why are people so caught up in this "embrace your feminine side" thing?

I'm a fucking guy for God's sakes. I don't have to like feminine things.

You don't have to like girl things, but you do like some things that most people would say are feminine. What's wrong with that?

 

[altlover85]

Are you kidding me?

1.) You don't have to identify with a show to like it.
2.) Even if you did, a man identifying with a woman isn't feminine by definition. It depends on what they identify with.

Yikes @ the shocking turn this thread has taken. If you thought it was a hot mess before you got here, you aren't really changing it anyway.

All the shows I watch, I identify with in some way. Otherwise I wouldn't want to watch them. I watch America's Next Top Model, not because I want to be a female fashion model, but because I like the clothes and the fashion. I watch Sex and the City because I relate to what Carrie and co. go through with in their relationships. I watch The Biggest Loser because my mom and stepdad are heavy. I watch Top Chef because I'm interested in food and wish I was that good of a cook and like to think about what I'd do in that situation.

Right, but on The Golden Girls they are dating men and talking about family issues while being funny. I would say that a gay man watching the show could identify with at least the dating men part and would therefore be more likely to watch the show.

I stayed out of this thread because I was sick of the whole gay and gender debate. I came into it because you brought it up in another thread. I didn't come into it to conform with the majority, but rather to express my opinion.