Why do straights hate gays? by Larry Kramer

[Rali_hates_Mondays]

And to add to my point, I don't think it's very encouraging to anyone when you call them spineless and cowards, regardless of their age or not. Some of you think too much of what other people should do rather than understanding the situation itself.

I'll add no further to the thread cause it's not like my point will come across well anyway.

You've taken these words out of my mouth! That was exactly what I was going on about! Too often we generalise about individuals and what they have to face up to.

Oh and Soil, people are more likely to stand up to the homophobic villains if they have support and encouragement.

 

[Soilwork]

gay people should not need to come out of the closet. if they don't want to, that's their choice.

Of course it is. I never said different.

my partner knows, my family knows, my friends know. i don't need to let anyone else know.

Ok so wait... you're out. To anyone inportant in your life.. you're out.. that's all I'm suggesting you do.

you don't have to ride your motorcycle in the gay parade if you don't want... but you're out to friends and family. That's out.. that's enough.

if larry kramer doesn't understand why gays are hated, maybe he should look at soilwork and himself. turnoffs for sure.

Don't try to hang your insecurities on me, pal. I get so sick of all that "Oh.. people will not LIKE me if they - snif - know.. and it's ALL YOUR FAULT."

You seem to think I'l telling people they need to go running through the streets wearing a pink T-shirt and carrying a rainbow flag... I'm just saying that those important to you should know.... And you seem to agree with me.

 

[Soilwork]

Oh and Soil, people are more likely to stand up to the homophobic villains if they have support and encouragement.

So how come they're not out?

I see so much fucking support and encouragement on this thread I'm going into insulin shock.

But sometimes you need to slap them in the face just to get their attention.

 

[NickCole]

if larry kramer doesn't understand why gays are hated, maybe he should look at soilwork and himself. turnoffs for sure.

There it is.

If we just behave nicely, don’t bring up uncomfortable issues and keep our voices at a pleasant pitch people won't hate us.

There's a heavy price for that.

Ask African Americans before Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King. Ask gays before Stonewall.

People who are so concerned about being liked have an easier life in some ways but it is not a better life, and it is absent self-respect.

 

[Soilwork]

There it is.

If we just behave nicely, don’t bring up uncomfortable issues and keep our voices at a pleasant pitch people won't hate us.

There's a heavy price for that.

Ask African Americans before Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King. Ask gays before Stonewall.

People who are so concerned about being liked have an easier life in some ways but it is not a better life, and it is absent self-respect.

I wish I could have said it as well.

All those people who whine about th pride day parade giving a bad name to the gay community, but when it comes to to organize the new march... they're too busy keeping their sexual orientation to themselves to actually lift a finger and try to add their voice.

We're only going to change people's minds if we talk to them. You can't wait for the world to change before you live in it.

 

[Hard Luck]

I'm just saying that those important to you should know.... And you seem to agree with me.

And so I just don't get how this rather common sense mode of being OUT - no pink shirts with I'm Gay emblazoned in glitter ... really only known to the people in our lives and the occassional banker when the subject comes up naturally.... how does this engender any visibility that will supposedly work against gay hatred?


I know all the bromides about how once people see that gay people are normal just like everybody else, they'll chill out with the phobishness. But the truth is that most gay people are so normal, no one's really noticing they're even there.


And what about the assertion that the more visible gays are, the more hatred is stirred up? I have a gut reaction that agrees with this. There's another thread around here today about gays making up only 2% of the population. I think that conclusion is crap ... but I also think there'd be less gay hate if we really were that insignificant a minority.


And do you think those who hate gays hate us simply because it's socially acceptable, and there must always be some group to direct hatred at? Or is there a real reason that phobics have their phobia? Is it simply what they're taught, or is there a real, personal source of homo hatred for the people who truly hate queers?



I don't have any answers to any of this ... but what I find so distressing about the current times of anti-gay backlash is the way it seems to be open season on gay-bashing in most parts of this country. We've got zero political support, and the anti-gay rights frenzy seems to be growing geometrically. Whatever we're doing or not doing ... it's not working. And I wish we could come up with new angles toward a lasting solution of civil rights and general acceptance as human beings.

 

[Chalchalero]

Nor will I.

I can see a bigger picture, but I guess caring about the whole community makes me a bully.

Caring about your own selfish needs works for some people.


(in the short term)

Caring about people doesn't make you a bully...calling them names and accusing them of having no gusts or balls does.

Just to clarify...

 

[JNewYork]

okay, i getcha soilwork.

cool.

 

[Chalchalero]

"The problems with Kramer is he is abrasive and crude and shows little if any tact."

I'm sorry you deleted that post, because I would have liked to have read it.

As Soilwirk said, it is why he is admired. You have to understand, and I am not presuming to know your age, because there are so many of you who hide it for some reason, but if you were around during the beginning of AIDS, that sort of attitude was necessary to get people to acknowledge that the disease even existed. (Was that the ultimate in a run-on sentence or what????)

Ronald Reagan refused to even mention Aids throughout his administration, and for many years it was not considered to be an official health crisis. Clinton was the first one that I can recall (and I might be wrong) who finally made helping people with AIDS to deal with it.

This was due to Larry Kramer and Act Up and GMHC (another of his groups) who brought this to the public forum. It took invading masses at St. Patrick's Cathedral (which I thought at the time was absolutely horrible!), and all of the other "abrasive and crude" tactics thease people used in order to make it happen.

What people seem not to understand, is that the reason Act Up died is that everyone who formed the core of it died of AIDS! Larry Kramer has AIDS. He is not HIV positive, he has AIDS. Those of you out there who are HIV positive, but don't discuss it here, (and you cannot tell me that there are not some of you out there...), would not be getting the drugs, the respect in the hospitals, the help financially, that you are recieving now, were it not for Larry Kramer and his "abrasive and crude" methods. So please - do not now act as though he now offends you!

 

[gewhite3]

Quite honestly, he's right.

It's one of the reasons that I spew open distain for all you... I'm sorry... losers who live in the closet.

Oh, you're the first ones to make it all about you... "My Daddy won't understand" or "My friends don't think it's Macho" or "I won't inherit the family jewels."

You cling to your desperate and pathetic closets as if the world will end if you came out.

The problem is that it's not going to start turning until we all do.

It's a lot easier to hate us if you can't see us.

So THIS, my closeted friends... is entirely your fault. I have no sympathy for any of you, and your excuses are tired and empty. In the end, you don't want to come out for your own selfish and spineless reasons.

You don't deserve to live equally or even that happily. You haven't earned it.

100% Right on!!!

This 1 post says it all, and anyone that stays in the closet IS a coward. It really doesn't matter what excuse you use, they are all LAME EXCUSES!!!! Until you come out, you can't bitch about anything, rights, taxes, non-acceptance, ANYTHING.

I was scared as hell to come out of the closet, but I DID IT!!! That was almost 20 years ago and it's the best thing I've ever done in my life. It could be the best thing anyone does in their life but until you do it, shut up!!

The old adage "The truth will set you free"......... it's absolutely true that it will. Throw your life away being in the closet, and you will never know what freedom is, and you deserve it as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Chalchalero]

I can't understand the fervour with which you all attack Soilwork. He is right in what he says, perhaps he could be a little more sympathetic and understanding but that doesn't deny that he is right in his opinions.

We want people to have equal rights in law, we want them to be able to express themselves freely without discrimination but at the same time we are saying stay in your closets if coming out will cause heart-ache and difficulties and just wait till things get better.

Being out changes people's regard on homosexuality and that is probably most evident in your own circle of acquaintences. Acceptance is easier when you see someone you know and respect is gay.

Soilwork is right that all the reasons for not coming out are, as painful and difficult as they may be, excuses if you are searching for equality and freedom.

Understanding and acceptance has to be fought for and it can't be won by the few, everyone should participate in some manner even if it is just letting one person know that you are gay.

There are so many arguments for not coming out, loss of job, discrimination in a closed society, rejection from family, violence, etc. but is the environment within which you are hiding worth all the depression, frustration, lies and lack of freedom experienced?

Please just ponder on Soilwork's opinion rather than his manner of expressing it. Can't you see the truth behind his comments.

No.

Because it is so easy for people like you and him to discount the fact that people can DIE if they come out in certain circumstances and you people just don't care. It is a matter of ideology for you yet it is a matter of life or death fro others and you just don't care. This is just not right. Period.

His complete lack of understanding for anyone else's circumstances is disgusting and precisely the EXACT same treatment we receive from the homophobic straight world. We do not need it from our own.

If you want equality and the right to live your life as you choose, the where the hell do you or anyone else get off deciding that others cannot have that same right?

 

[Chalchalero]

Right on, Chalchalero!

Soilwork is an insensitive bully.

Maybe he's just jealous of those of us who don't walk around obviously gay or telling the world we're gay and thus don't have the "gay" label to most.

I think he resents us because if HE has to endure then everybody else must.

If he wants to be a dyke on a bike and parading himself around as Mr. Gay, 24/7, that's his choice.

One wonders if he made his choice why can't he be at peace? Nope, he's full of rage and bitterness.

Wonder why? It's as I've said. He's jealous. If HE had to endure than everyone else must.

No thanks, Soilwork. I'll leave you to your gay gang and your bullying.

I'll continue to be unadvertised gay and loving my life.

Good for you.

Your life is yours and the fight for equality made that happen for you. You now have the choice to decide how you wish to live your life and you have decided that it is not advertising your sexuality. That is the right you now have and you are exercising it. Good for you. Do not ever let anyone bully you into doing what you are not comfortable with.

 

[gewhite3]

^^Every person has rights and deserves them just as much as anyone else. Get out of this fucking bully attitude already.

WRONG!!!! We don't have rights.......and we never will until your BS attitude changes.

Sorry, but that's just the truth, and you're just as lame as all of the others making excuses in this thread.

 

[Chalchalero]

What is the point? You want a bruised chicken with unusable eggs? And at some point the chickens learn to stay away from you.

About Lary Kramer, recently they had a lot of shows on cable about the history of AIDS and HIV, one show showed a town hall that Larry took part in. The panel consisted of various medical professional, activists and community "leaders". A woman was talking about ways she thinks the AIDS/HIV activists could break through to the Bush Administration and Larry would not let the woman speak. Finally people from the audeince started yelling for him to STFU, he stormed off the stage.

When people scream like this, unable to have a discussion, people stop listening.

It happens here, there's several people at this site that is I see anything longer than a few lines from them I don't even read what they wrote. I know others do the same thing, sometimes with what I write.

I'm not sure what you were trying to say, but I believe your point was that you don't like long posts. Well that is your right not to read them.

The problem is that it sometimes takes a poster longer than a line or two to debunk or even just discuss what other people have written. This is the point of forums such as these - an exchange of ideas.

You are not obliged to read posts longer than four words. But you don't make yourself look very bright when you say you won't do it. You may want to keep that to yourself...

 

[Chalchalero]

Look. If you have been reading what I've been saying, I have not been giving an either or solution. I have been saying that both political activism and transformational activism is needed.


And not changing the minds of your legislatures and simply demanding laws be changed will also get you nowhere. They're not going to have the political will to change laws if they have not learned to at least tolerate us if not accept us by getting to know us. The same goes for the voting public when they need to go to the polls to vote on state issues or constitutional amendments, for example. They are not going to be willing to vote for those issues which will help us if they at least haven't learned to tolerate us if not accept us by getting to know us.

Again, what I have been saying is not that legal recourse is not the solution or that it is the only solution, but that both political and transformational activism is required.

To insist that it takes a single solution is as misguided as the person who said this:


Chal, you and I both are aware, as are several others, that even during the turbulent civil rights movements of the 60's there was no single unified view about methods and taking only one form of action, which is why saying to sit around and wait on or depend on a single unified methodology is misguided.

It takes the participation of every individual contributing in whatever way they are capable. For some that means political activism (which includes challenging laws or even being willing to file police reports when harrassed), for others that can be transformational activism just by being themselves and not hiding to their families, friends and colleagues who from actually knowing you and getting to see you as a decent human being may themselves become less complacent and find the will to go vote for legal changes in our favor.

And this is an aside and not really a part of an argument, as much as just a personal gut feeling. People of color have never had the option to "hide" their minority status and thus they did not have the luxory of being complacent about their treatment even in their day-to-day existence, treatment, and actions, and in my opinion it is that very ability on the part of us gays to be able to "hide" ourselves that for some allows for such complacency and unwillingness to stand up and be counted.

I appreciate what you say, and I agree with you. I was responding to what I believed at the time was your disagreement with what I had said. You referred to me as being glib and so I felt the need to expand a bit on what I meant...although I may have still been "glib" about it.

My reference earlier to neo-Nazis was in order to address that same point that you made. There are people who hate blacks, Hispanics (both of which I am), Asians, you name it, simply because of what they are. People who remain in the closet may not wish to be hated, shunned, cut off from their families and/or communities simply for being gay, and I think this is understandable and does not make them gutless pussies. You say they can hide it, I do not believe that. Eventually, and unfortunately, it will come out, even if by virtue of nasty bitter people who will out you because they believe you should be out.

I do not believe that it ALWAYS has to do with complacency. Sometimes, as I tried to point out inearlier threads, it is a matter of life or death. I again reiterate - does anyone remember Matthew Shepard?

If I were a young person thinking about coming out, that incident alone would have put me off of the whole idea. That's just me...

I'm already out to everyone who knows me, by the way...just in case...

 

[Pushover]

The more I read this thread the more angrier I get, and the more angrier I get the more I feel like staying in my closet just to piss people off.

I've never seen so many jackasses in my entire life.

That being said, i'm probably not reading this thread anymore, and probably not going to post on this forum anymore if this is what the gay community is about. If this is how you people act in real life, no wonder so many people hate us.

 

[Chalchalero]

Chal, perhaps my expanding on this comment will help in understanding my thinking...

To illustrate this by an anecdote. The Supreme Court originally ruled that sodomy laws were consitutional, but that decision was reversed and made unconstitutional only after perceptions of us had changed.

State constitutional amendments have been made to write discrimination into state constitutions. Those amendments are also not going to be removed until the hearts and minds of enough people change to get them to vote again for an amendment that would remove them. Similar to the way the 18th and 21st federal constitutional amendments were passed and repealed due to changing public perceptions. The same goes for the laws that allowed for "separate but equal".

There has to be a willingness to review original legal interpretations from new perspectives to provide the political will to allow for reinterpretations.

The gaining support for the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell is another example of how being visible has helped to change perceptions to bring about a political will to challenge the rationality of previous law.

Nowhere am I saying any form of activism (political or transformational) is going to totally eradicate prejudice. But it can help change the perceptions of individuals such as the general who once supported DADT and now does not because he came into contact with more out gay service members and gay civilians which has now given him the political will to speak up for us.

You have a great point, and I wish I had read this before writing my last post...

The point I am trying to make has been made by you already though. It is the people in power whose minds we have to change, not the schmuck on the street. If the general whose mind was changed had been a private, you would never have heard of it and no one would have cared.

 

[Chalchalero]

When you've been beaten down, are you going to whine to the people who beat you down, or are you going to stand up?

your choice.

And when you see a person being beaten down, are you going to blame him/her for allowing it to happen or are you going to call the police on the person who is beating him?

Your choice.

 

[arteguy]

Doesn't it seem weird in the US or Europe, when a woman wishes women had less rights? I thought this was about straight people hating us. I agree their is a very bewildering commonness about this volume of hate that has been drummed up. I worked with alot of high school and college kids and I was out. Everyone seemed pretty ok with it, so I think there is hope in the under 30 generation. But Larry Kramer and others of that more political time helped all of us and things were very bad for us. I think this response shows we know we are part of the problem. When the anti-gay marriage law came up in Texas, the paper went to the largest gay bar and hardly anyone voted. Sometimes I believe you deserve it, but it effects me too. I have yet to know a closeted guy who was comfortable with himself or not ashamed. I understand if you live in a place where you can get killed or imprisoned, but if you are in the US and are closeted you don't deserve much respect. This is your shot at life, and you are denieing or hiding who you are. You don't get to come back and be your real self. All America has had a bad fearful hate period. Gays have been used as the evil other and everyone is scared to speak out about it cause others might not like them or they might make god mad. When the closeted people are found out, it makes us all look bad because you are usually cheating and it destroys your own family and kids.I have changed some peoples minds because I'm fine with who I am and I speak up and they respect that. If you want to be on the DL fine but I'm tired of all the excuses from adults. It is hard but that's why it's important. I'm not talking about kids or nonUS people

 

[Chalchalero]

Of course it is. I never said different.



Ok so wait... you're out. To anyone inportant in your life.. you're out.. that's all I'm suggesting you do.

you don't have to ride your motorcycle in the gay parade if you don't want... but you're out to friends and family. That's out.. that's enough.



Don't try to hang your insecurities on me, pal. I get so sick of all that "Oh.. people will not LIKE me if they - snif - know.. and it's ALL YOUR FAULT."

You seem to think I'l telling people they need to go running through the streets wearing a pink T-shirt and carrying a rainbow flag... I'm just saying that those important to you should know.... And you seem to agree with me.

It's kinda how you were sounding for a bit there. I'm glad to know I was mistaken as well...