"21 detained under suspicion of being gay"

[Kulindahr]

The Dark Ages is all about Christianity. The Dark Ages started with the religious in power. The Roman Emperor Constantine made Christianity the dominant religion and not soon after him, the Roman Empire fell.

You've got the order of events right, and that's about it.
The Empire was falling already, and it took a long time after Constantine to finish doing so. As it collapsed, the Roman church took over more and more functions of the state, taking care of communication, literacy, and more, and adding functions such as caring for widows and orphans. It was only once the civil authority structure entirely collapsed and the church took it over that any significant symptoms of oppression began. Even then, it was the church (or pieces of it) which kept literacy and learning alive (especially in offbeat Ireland).

You're perpetuating a myth spawned by people wanting to discredit religion, but which is contrary to the record of events.

And what do you call the Kings of Europe who said they had divine right over their people given to them directly from God. Or the British King who killed his wifes because the Catholic Church didn't like divorce very much?

Those were contrary to the teachings of Christ -- and came after the beginning of the dark ages. They were both a symptom and an attempted remedy: a remedy, in that the church was looking for ways to establish order amid chaos. Granted, it was a rather poor remedy, but when about all the reading material anyone literate had was the Bible, Old Testament models came easily.

Hun, the Muslims invaded southern Europe because they were attacked by the Christians. And what about the Mongols? Did you forget they also invaded parts of Europe?

The Muslims invaded southern Europe because they were on a roll, and looking for more lands to conquer and put under Allah. The Mongols were just part of an ongoing historical phenomenon of population movement from east Asia toward, and sometimes reaching, Europe.
In the east, the Muslims attacked Byzantium to conquer it -- not because it had given any offense.

Also, what about the Christians spread all over Europe and then into the Middle East under the guidance of the Vatican to convert the barbaric masses to Christianity?

Um, there wasn't a "Vatican" until quite, quite late in that process!
There wasn't even actually a "pope" as we know it.

Hun, Islam preaches that you allow people to believe in their own religion, even though they are wrong in Allah's eyes, it is not the job of Muslims to convert them to Islam. In fact, Muslims didn't attempt to stringently convert the Europeans to Islam, they were allowed to keep their religion, and they lived side by side with the Muslims for a very long time. If they wanted to convert, they certainly could, and I am sure they were made aware of the teachings of Islam.

Yeas, you can believe your own religion -- and be a second-class citizen, who can be killed if you stand in the way of the Islamic authorities' plans for furthering the Rule of Allah.
And remember that Islam as a one-way religion: you can join, but you can't leave; the 'Prophet' was very explicit that anyone ceasing to be a Muslim was to be put to death.

Now now, this doesn't mean that what they do to homosexuals are right on any level. But killing of homosexuals isn't in the Quran. Wanna know something? The part condeming homosexuality is in the Bible and Torah.

Just like Christianity got over their lust for killing gays and none believers, Muslims will soon realize the error of their ways. Hopefully sooner than later.

Condemnation of homosexuals is only in the Bible for those who don't know how to read. Oh, they may run their eyes over the words and put sentences together, but that isn't reading; reading means taking the whole context. Anyone who has read "Treat others in the fashion you would have others treat you" won't be making laws against what consenting adults want to do between themselves.

Islam is different because Mohammed got more bloodthirsty as he went along, and the later statements define the context of it all. That is the element by which the extremists can justify their positions, because they threw out Jesus, love, tolerance, mercy, and everything else He represents and taught.

 

[Apollo]

its a business there because they make money from visitors.

No, each section has religious history that makes it belong to that religion.

The Dome on/of the Rock where Mohammed ascended to heaven. The muslim quater

The Wall in the Jewish section

No idea whats in the christian section.

And the businesses in those sectors are small boutique type businesses.

 

[Kulindahr]

Oh wow, I can't believe you just said that. You just preached all this shit about Muslims trying to convert people to Islam, now your saying they need to convert to Christianity to be sane? Are you SERIOUS?

Sorry, look at Turkey. That is an islamic country that keeps religion out of government. Sharia law does need to go away, but not by converting to Christianity or any other religion.

(accepting Jesus as you "prophet" makes you christian and no longer muslim btw)

Stop watching propaganda, and read the Quran and learn the true history of the religion.

I didn't say that at all. I noted that Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet, but ignores Him.

The more I read of the history, the more I'm convinced that terrorism and other violence are the natural result from a founder who freely employed violence and engaged in terrorism. And the more I read of Mohammed, the more I'm convinced that the religion is from "the dark side", since it was set in motion by a man who was liar, murderer, and thief -- and like so many in mental hospitals, said, "God told me to do it".

 

[-Lance-]

Thats really sad, because it isn't that much dangerous. You just afraid of trying something new.

But at least your being honest instead of speaking some bullshit. I give you that. Thank you for your honesty.

Yeah.

I'm not narrow minded, I love learnign about cultures and tasting different foods, listenning to new music....but there are lots of places I don't care to visit.

My number one fear is North Korea, the middle east coming in second.
Japan (as well as most of Asia) is crowded as fuck. (America is getting that way)
I have no intention to going to Mexico ( I live near san diego and I've never crossed the border)

It's hard enough going to a foreign country but then they don't know my language (which is cool, I don't know their langauge either, I just don't like to be put in those awkward situations if I can avoid it.)

I'm going to be honest again: I have no problems with race at all, but I probably wont befriend you if you are foreign. Not because I have issues with them, its just that we have less in common than we do differences.

I'm nice and polite to everyone, but I just don't see myself becoming best friends with someone that grew up in a completely different environment than me.

I've had good friends who lived in foreign countries when they were young (Germany, Africa, Middle East)....but they moved to America and became "Americanized" (that sounds gross, but its the best way I can explain it)

Example, I'll have an Asian friend, I can get along with him just fine, but his parents I have no interest in being around. I can't understand their speech, their not as tolerant of homosexuality, they have their own opinions, etc.

Does this mean I hate foreigners? Nope. But if I can't find some sort of common interest to base a friendship off of, then it ain't happening.

But hey, I would love to get to meet gay men from around the world, that would be interesting.

I'm done!

 

[Kulindahr]

**This refers to post num. 65 **

Christianity did not create tolerance in the west, some of your reformation denominations were extremely serious about religious repression.

If you have a religious beef with Islam because you're a Christian and think only you are right, please say so. There's no point in discussion if that's your position. A lot of what you're saying is factually in error.

The denominations with no tolerance were not following what Jesus said; that's amazingly easily demonstrated. Jesus' words demand tolerance, which is just an aspect of love, His paramount theme.

I have a beef with Islam because its founder was a murderer, liar, and thief, and he taught his followers that doing those same things to further Allah's cause is good.

 

[Apollo]

You've got the order of events right, and that's about it.
The Empire was falling already, and it took a long time after Constantine to finish doing so. As it collapsed, the Roman church took over more and more functions of the state, taking care of communication, literacy, and more, and adding functions such as caring for widows and orphans. It was only once the civil authority structure entirely collapsed and the church took it over that any significant symptoms of oppression began. Even then, it was the church (or pieces of it) which kept literacy and learning alive (especially in offbeat Ireland).

You're perpetuating a myth spawned by people wanting to discredit religion, but which is contrary to the record of events.

The church also spread that women were filthy, and for a time. Once a woman gave birth, she wasn't allowed in the church for several months.

The Church worried about literacy among the priests and nobility.

The church also gave consent to many raids on parts of Europe that had not accepted or refused to accept Christianity, and saw the violence done by their people as necessary in the service of God.

Your spreading false myths about Islam too. Islam is not a bloody religion, and it is not meant to be a bloody religion.

Yeas, you can believe your own religion -- and be a second-class citizen, who can be killed if you stand in the way of the Islamic authorities' plans for furthering the Rule of Allah.
And remember that Islam as a one-way religion: you can join, but you can't leave; the 'Prophet' was very explicit that anyone ceasing to be a Muslim was to be put to death.

You can be a christian and be a second class citizen too. Umm remember slavery? They not only were converted to christianity, but also treated like second class citizens up until Martin Luther King, Jr.

Kind of like the fundamentalist Christians are furthering the Rule of God in American and Europe? Like the people who are going into China and illegally trying to spread Christianity? It is illegal to spread any type of religion in China even eastern religions.

Christianity is a one way religion as well. No priest or preacher would ever give their consent to someone converting to say Judaism or Buddhism, or Islam. Doesn't stop people from either three religions from converting.

Condemnation of homosexuals is only in the Bible for those who don't know how to read. Oh, they may run their eyes over the words and put sentences together, but that isn't reading; reading means taking the whole context. Anyone who has read "Treat others in the fashion you would have others treat you" won't be making laws against what consenting adults want to do between themselves.

Islam is different because Mohammed got more bloodthirsty as he went along, and the later statements define the context of it all. That is the element by which the extremists can justify their positions, because they threw out Jesus, love, tolerance, mercy, and everything else He represents and taught.

The same words that condem homosexuality are the same words in the Quran and Torah. It is the EXACT SAME PASSAGE.

Christians have thrown out the teachings of Jesus for love and peace. They threw out his TRUE teachings the minute that man died. They KILLED in the name of Jesus to convert the masses.

Mohammed was not bloodthirsty. He fought a war to gain control of Mecca. The most holy place in all of Islam. After Mecca, he stopped fighting. And so did the muslims.

 

[TX-Beau]

Kulindahr, you have yet to point us all to a universally true interpretation of the Bible. All of this is just your opinion backed up by an astonishingly shoddy grasp of history and western civ.

 

[Telstra]

Yeah.

I'm not narrow minded, I love learnign about cultures and tasting different foods, listenning to new music....but there are lots of places I don't care to visit.

My number one fear is North Korea, the middle east coming in second.
Japan (as well as most of Asia) is crowded as fuck. (America is getting that way)
I have no intention to going to Mexico ( I live near san diego and I've never crossed the border)

It's hard enough going to a foreign country but then they don't know my language (which is cool, I don't know their langauge either, I just don't like to be put in those awkward situations if I can avoid it.)

I'm going to be honest again: I have no problems with race at all, but I probably wont befriend you if you are foreign. Not because I have issues with them, its just that we have less in common than we do differences.

I'm nice and polite to everyone, but I just don't see myself becoming best friends with someone that grew up in a completely different environment than me.

I've had good friends who lived in foreign countries when they were young (Germany, Africa, Middle East)....but they moved to America and became "Americanized" (that sounds gross, but its the best way I can explain it)

Example, I'll have an Asian friend, I can get along with him just fine, but his parents I have no interest in being around. I can't understand their speech, their not as tolerant of homosexuality, they have their own opinions, etc.

Does this mean I hate foreigners? Nope. But if I can't find some sort of common interest to base a friendship off of, then it ain't happening.

But hey, I would love to get to meet gay men from around the world, that would be interesting.

I'm done!

North Korea is the safest place to visit if you are a foreigner i think.

 

[Apollo]

I didn't say that at all. I noted that Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet, but ignores Him.

The more I read of the history, the more I'm convinced that terrorism and other violence are the natural result from a founder who freely employed violence and engaged in terrorism. And the more I read of Mohammed, the more I'm convinced that the religion is from "the dark side", since it was set in motion by a man who was liar, murderer, and thief -- and like so many in mental hospitals, said, "God told me to do it".

I assume Him, means God the father.

Allah is a arabic word for God. They believe in the same God as Jews and Christians, just live under a different book just like Jews and Christians. Many passages from the Bible are in the Quran. They recognize Jesus as one of the prophets of God, but not their prophet. Their prophet was Mohammed.

In the Jewish faith, there are many many words for God, but he is still God.

 

[TX-Beau]

** refering to my previous post **

Honestly who appointed you arbiter of Christianity, other Christians think differently. I know, only you are correct.

 

[Apollo]

Yeah.

I'm not narrow minded, I love learnign about cultures and tasting different foods, listenning to new music....but there are lots of places I don't care to visit.

My number one fear is North Korea, the middle east coming in second.
Japan (as well as most of Asia) is crowded as fuck. (America is getting that way)
I have no intention to going to Mexico ( I live near san diego and I've never crossed the border)

It's hard enough going to a foreign country but then they don't know my language (which is cool, I don't know their langauge either, I just don't like to be put in those awkward situations if I can avoid it.)

I'm going to be honest again: I have no problems with race at all, but I probably wont befriend you if you are foreign. Not because I have issues with them, its just that we have less in common than we do differences.

I'm nice and polite to everyone, but I just don't see myself becoming best friends with someone that grew up in a completely different environment than me.

I've had good friends who lived in foreign countries when they were young (Germany, Africa, Middle East)....but they moved to America and became "Americanized" (that sounds gross, but its the best way I can explain it)

Example, I'll have an Asian friend, I can get along with him just fine, but his parents I have no interest in being around. I can't understand their speech, their not as tolerant of homosexuality, they have their own opinions, etc.

Does this mean I hate foreigners? Nope. But if I can't find some sort of common interest to base a friendship off of, then it ain't happening.

But hey, I would love to get to meet gay men from around the world, that would be interesting.

I'm done!

What you just said is how all people live. Well most people.

I have no problem making friends with people of different races. I don't really care if their accent is thick or they have different customs from me.

But for a lot of people, that is too much to ask of them, so they stay around people they are familiar with. Doesn't make them racist, just means they don't want to feel uncomfortable or be made to feel uncomfortable.

It's your choice, and I am glad that your honest about it.

 

[Apollo]

I have a beef with Islam because its founder was a murderer, liar, and thief, and he taught his followers that doing those same things to further Allah's cause is good.

My God, no he didn't. Islam says that people may believe in what they want to. Thats why the Muslim invaders of Europe didn't try to convert the masses to Islam. They preached the words of Islam, but they didn't downright force them to convert.

If anything, if what you are saying is true of Mohammed, Christians followed his teachings more than Muslims. Cause Dark Ages christians sure did murder, lie and cheat to try and spread Christianity. Oh, and borrow pagan holidays and rituals.

 

[Apollo]

North Korea is the safest place to visit if you are a foreigner i think.

North Korea is the communist state, I think you mean South Korea.

Just don't want to send him into the wrong place. We don't want him ending up on the news

 

[Kulindahr]

The prophets aren't the religion. They are the spreaders of the religion in the beginning. Get that straight.

Apparently you don't know much about religion -- or at least about these two.
Jesus IS the message of God for Christians; the Bible only exists to try to illustrate His character. Mohammed's words are the final say in Islam; from those there is no appeal.

The religion is the book, and what you make of the words in the book. Seriously now, get it straight.

For Christianity -- false.
For Islam -- partially so.

The story of Jesus is in the Quran. The EXACT same story as in the Bible, I think the story of Jesus is in the Torah as well.

Nope.
Jesus is mentioned in the Koran as a prophet. Some bits of what's in the Gospels is mentioned. The term "Gospel" is used to refer to Jesus message, as being from God. But nobody sat down and translated all ~138,000 words of Greek in the New Testament into Arabic.
Nor is the story of Jesus in the Torah. The Torah is the "Books of Moses", called the "Pentateuch" due to there being five books. The Torah was completed before David was king in Jerusalem, on the order of 1000 B.C. Some of the story of Jesus is foreshadowed, even predicted, but not much.

Also, the Bible was not put together by Jesus, nor was it spread by Jesus. Constantine and a select group of people in Christianity put it together.

Is that lie still being told?
Constantine had nothing to do with what went into the New Testament, and the contents of the Old Testament had been settled before those of the New. Neither was done by any "select group"; in the case of the Old Testament, scholars got together (notably at Jamnia) and discussed what all rabbis recognized as being from God, and pretty much just wrote the list down, from what everyone agreed on to what almost everyone to most to many to some. Sort of the same thing happened with the New Testament, though a bit more rapidly; lists of what books were trusted ("received") were circulating before all the Apostles were dead! Christian churches and bishops kept on comparing lists, until there was a very thorough consensus, with the result that before Constantine was even born, there was one list (with some considerations noted), settled and closed.

For the New Testament it was a fascinating process. The course I took concerning it was a headache (never less than 1000 pages reading in any of the ten weeks, and not all in English!), but was definitely a delight. It's too bad that most Christians never are told how it happened, but are left to believe it all came down special delivery or something.
It's even sadder that outfits like The History Channel are perpetrating falsehoods about it.

Did you know there is an ommited story from the Bible where Jesus tells one of the Apostles that eventually all people come to Heaven.

It wasn't "omitted"; it wasn't even invented until He was already gone. There's a lot of that kind of stuff running around, and people like to make a big deal of it, but the reason it isn't in the Bible is because the people who actually knew Jesus didn't accept any of that fiction, and the people they told didn't either, and it wasn't until several generations had gone by that people felt comfortable making up their own stuff.

There, BTW, is something interesting that Christianity and Islam are rather unique in: it all sprouts from one individual, who is the last word on the matter, and it's highly unlikely that anything false was spirited in, because it all got vetted by people who knew the guy.

 

[Kulindahr]

There must be a way to dimplomatically ask these countries to stop punishing people for being gay. I wish Andreus was here....

I've been wishing that myself. I would love his comments on that documentary, for starters -- all the pieces in it look solid, but I don't think any of us would quite have the grasp he would of how it all goes together.

 

[Kulindahr]

there is NO such thing as "islamic territory".
there is NO such thing as "christain territory".

territory belongs to the people who lives there.

I think you would have a hard time convincing many Muslims of that -- especially in the old protectorate of Palestine.

 

[Kulindahr]

Before I go into any of that, please tell me if you hate Islam on religious grounds.

There’s no point in putting in the work if all you’re interested in doing is repeating ad nauseum that Christians are moral and right, and Muslims are bloody and infidel.

I understand this makes you feel all warm and smug and superior, but it’s not discussion.

I'm having trouble figuring out what you're talking about.....

Islam was born in blood, spread by blood... and those methods are affirmed as legitimate by the founder, the guy with the final word, who himself lied, stole, and murdered to get things rolling.

 

[Telstra]

I think you would have a hard time convincing many Muslims of that -- especially in the old protectorate of Palestine.

they would have a hard time convincing me that the land belongs to islam or christainity or buddism (just put this in to muddy the water).

 

[Apollo]

Apparently you don't know much about religion -- or at least about these two.
Jesus IS the message of God for Christians; the Bible only exists to try to illustrate His character. Mohammed's words are the final say in Islam; from those there is no appeal.

Yes, Jesus is the prophet of Christianity not Islam. Muslims accept that fact. Mohammed is their prophet though, not Jesus. They recognize Jesus and his powers and accomplishments, but not their prophet.

Thats why it is called Islam and not Christianity.

For Christianity -- false.
For Islam -- partially so.

um, last time I checked. preachers and priests preach DIRECTLY from the book. because that is where the religion is. IN THE BOOK.

Nope.
Jesus is mentioned in the Koran as a prophet. Some bits of what's in the Gospels is mentioned. The term "Gospel" is used to refer to Jesus message, as being from God. But nobody sat down and translated all ~138,000 words of Greek in the New Testament into Arabic.
Nor is the story of Jesus in the Torah. The Torah is the "Books of Moses", called the "Pentateuch" due to there being five books. The Torah was completed before David was king in Jerusalem, on the order of 1000 B.C. Some of the story of Jesus is foreshadowed, even predicted, but not much.

Ah, understood. Doesn't cancel the fact that he is in the Quran.

I wasn't sure about the Torah. I know they reject him as their God, wasn't sure if he made it in though.

There, BTW, is something interesting that Christianity and Islam are rather unique in: it all sprouts from one individual, who is the last word on the matter, and it's highly unlikely that anything false was spirited in, because it all got vetted by people who knew the guy.

Yeah, I mentioned how they all worship the same God.

 

[Apollo]

there is NO such thing as "islamic territory".
there is NO such thing as "christain territory".

territory belongs to the people who lives there.

I think you would have a hard time convincing many Muslims of that -- especially in the old protectorate of Palestine.

I think you'd have a hard time convincing Jews and Christians of that either.