Florida Gay Club PULSE has been attacked with injuries, and possible hostage situation.

[eastofeden]

^^^I am not making the terrorist link...I am making a point about what an overbearing parent's view of religion does to a child....

On another gay board I know a lot of gay Muslims and the pressure they face because they have told me....and that is a fact.

It is not speculation what his father said about his religion and homosexuality...and he had way more than 15 minutes of fame.

Do you think Prayers for Bobby was just a fluke? ...or are you just ignoring the influence of a parent?

Your own observations or what you have repeated is speculation as well.

 

[kallipolis]

^^^I am not making the terrorist link...I am making a point about what an overbearing parent's view of religion does to a child....

On another gay board I know a lot of gay Muslims and the pressure they face because they have told me....and that is a fact.

It is not speculation what his father said about his religion and homosexuality...and he had way more than 15 minutes of fame.

Do you think Prayers for Bobby was just a fluke? ...or are you just ignoring the influence of a parent?

Your own observations or what you have repeated is speculation as well.

A parent's influence on its child can produce the very opposite effect...and often does.

I am also sure that Mateen's father would never have influenced his son to massacre 50 innocent people.

All I have done here is repeat the statements of the the CIA...abbreviated.

 

[eastofeden]

A parent's influence on its child can produce the very opposite effect...and often does.

I am also sure that Mateen's father would never have influenced his son to massacre 50 innocent people.

All I have done here is repeat the statements of the the CIA...abbreviated.

The CIA isn't the ultimate authority..they also have an opinion. They investigated him before for some reason....

I was also watching Bill Maher with this guy who has worked with the CIA and other organizations and been to meetings where it was discussed that their biggest fear and the biggest threat is a lone wolf..because they know nothing....

...and as for kids and the parents influence...I will leave it at that.

I do wonder though.... how many people born in the Middle East would be Muslims with no influence at all from the parents or peers or society?...and how many of them would subjugate and diminish other people in the name of religion....same goes for the Christians and the Jews....

People regularly cite their parents influence for their success and applaud them as a role model.....no one blinks an eye...usually get a lot of awwws or hugs...because it supports the narrative....

So does this incident..except it isn't the narrative most people want to hear....

Homophobic people...they got it from somewhere...and someone. If people are born gay and born straight..why do only straight people have no problem being who they are? Why exactly do YOU think people have a hard time coming out? **cough** religion **cough**

 

[KaraBulut]

The facts are that he called and pledged allegiance to ISIS...

The CIA has confirmed that Mateen had no link with IS, despite IS desperately attempting to persuade us that he did.

It's fair to say he had no direct link to IS/Da'ish. Just like someone today could claim to be in agreement with Hitler or the Nazi party, Omar Mateen seemed to be really ignorant about Islam and Islamists.

Omar Mateen had a history of making claims about ties to Hizballah (a Shi'a group) and Al-Qaeda (a Sunni group). When the FBI interviewed him, Mateen didn't seem to understand the difference between the two sects of Islam (most Afghans are Sunni).

Da'ish is an extremist Sunni and Salafist organization. If he were really involved in Da'ish, he would have known the difference between the branches of Islam and he would have known that Da'ish is conducting a civil war against Shi'ism.

The facts are his father is an overbearing religious controlling misogynist asswipe.....and the facts are he definitely played a major role in his son's demise.

The father seems odd when he speaks english. I haven't seen a translation of the videos (which are in Dari- the universal language in Afghanistan for the middle class) but just the idea that he's on a US-based Afghani news show (which apparently he paid to be on) promoting himself as a candidate for president of Afghanistan is an indicator that his brain doesn't quite work like the typical person.

On another gay board I know a lot of gay Muslims and the pressure they face because they have told me....and that is a fact.

The pressure is something common to all of the Abrahamic religions. The societal pressure is not too different from pressures in the US as recent as the 1940-1950s when homosexuality was illegal and considered a psychological disorder.

What differs in a lot of middle eastern countries is a familial and tribal pressure to marry and produce children. Homosexual sex is not uncommon or particularly rare, nor is male prostitution. It's living a homosexual lifestyle or behaving in an overly feminine way that prompts the backlash. That backlash is from the society at large, as much or more than from Islam.

Think of it this way- for most of the 20th century, there were many gay men in the US who married and had families but conducted their same-sex relationships on the down-low. It wasn't until gay men started demanding the ability to have openly and exclusively gay relationships that the society backlash reached a fever pitch (between 1970 and well into the Bush years through 2004).

For gay men who live in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan and areas controlled by Da'ish, there's constant fear of being discovered. Being caught can result in arrest by the state, public beatings (by the state), hanging/stoning (by the state or by mobs) or being lynched (by mobs).

If the people on the other gay board are talking about pressure and they live in the West, the pressure is psychological and it's more about getting married, having children and covering up what they do on the side.

Some of the speculation that went on last week about Omar Mateen being gay or closeted doesn't seem to be panning out- the FBI is doubtful and the hard evidence of any homosexual conduct by Mateen hasn't surfaced in all of the information that has been out there in the past week.

 

[Telstra]

It's fair to say he had no direct link to IS/Da'ish. Just like someone today could claim to be in agreement with Hitler or the Nazi party, Omar Mateen seemed to be really ignorant about Islam and Islamists.

Omar Mateen had a history of making claims about ties to Hizballah (a Shi'a group) and Al-Qaeda (a Sunni group). When the FBI interviewed him, Mateen didn't seem to understand the difference between the two sects of Islam.




The father seems odd when he speaks english. I haven't seen a translation of the videos (which are in Dari- the universal language in Afghanistan for the middle class) but just the idea that he's on a US-based Afghani news show (which apparently he paid to be on) promoting himself as a candidate for president of Afghanistan is an indicator that his brain doesn't quite work like the typical person.

The pressure is something common to all of the Abrahamic religions. The societal pressure is not too different from pressures in the US as recent as the 1940-1950s when homosexuality was illegal and considered a psychological disorder.

What differs in a lot of middle eastern countries is a familial and tribal pressure to marry and produce children. Homosexual sex is not uncommon or particularly rare, nor is male prostitution. It's living a homosexual lifestyle or behaving in an overly feminine way that prompts the backlash. That backlash is from the society at large, as much or more than from Islam.

Think of it this way- for most of the 20th century, there were many gay men in the US who married and had families but conducted their same-sex relationships on the down-low. It wasn't until gay men started demanding the ability to have openly and exclusively gay relationships that the society backlash reached a fever pitch (between 1970 and well into the Bush years through 2004).

For gay men who live in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan and areas controlled by Da'ish, there's constant fear of being discovered. Being caught can result in arrest by the state, public beatings (by the state), hanging/stoning (by the state or by mobs) or being lynched (by mobs).

If the people on the other gay board are talking about pressure and they live in the West, the pressure is psychological and it's more about getting married, having children and covering up what they do on the side.

Some of the speculation that went on last week about Omar Mateen being gay or closeted doesn't seem to be panning out- the FBI is doubtful and the hard evidence of any homosexual conduct by Mateen hasn't surfaced in all of the information that has been out there in the past week.

It is bad enough to live under the conservative society.
But the religion give it a seal of approval to kill and justify.

 

[eastofeden]

The pressure is something common to all of the Abrahamic religions. The societal pressure is not too different from pressures in the US as recent as the 1940-1950s when homosexuality was illegal and considered a psychological disorder.

What differs in a lot of middle eastern countries is a familial and tribal pressure to marry and produce children. Homosexual sex is not uncommon or particularly rare, nor is male prostitution. It's living a homosexual lifestyle or behaving in an overly feminine way that prompts the backlash. That backlash is from the society at large, as much or more than from Islam.

Think of it this way- for most of the 20th century, there were many gay men in the US who married and had families but conducted their same-sex relationships on the down-low. It wasn't until gay men started demanding the ability to have openly and exclusively gay relationships that the society backlash reached a fever pitch (between 1970 and well into the Bush years through 2004).

For gay men who live in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan and areas controlled by Da'ish, there's constant fear of being discovered. Being caught can result in arrest by the state, public beatings (by the state), hanging/stoning (by the state or by mobs) or being lynched (by mobs).

If the people on the other gay board are talking about pressure and they live in the West, the pressure is psychological and it's more about getting married, having children and covering up what they do on the side.

Some of the speculation that went on last week about Omar Mateen being gay or closeted doesn't seem to be panning out- the FBI is doubtful and the hard evidence of any homosexual conduct by Mateen hasn't surfaced in all of the information that has been out there in the past week.

^^^Quite a few live in Malaysia and Indonesia and The Philippines...but also a guy in Lebanon...and Morocco....and Saudi Arabia...and Turkey....and over the years I have read their stories. One of them..a man in Malaysia...is one of my personal heroes for so many reasons... and he has to balance the family expectations as you say along with who he is....as do the others.....

...but I think as with Christians and probably any religion...when the expectations aren't met...too often "God's will or words" are used as a weapon...introducing another aspect that may cause a lot of internal strife and psychological damage when the words are especially cruel if you are gay....

...and not so much in Malaysia or Indonesia or The Philippines but in the Middle East...the threat of death is enormous.....and very real. They do it in the name of religion.....and if enough right wing Christians had their way..it would be the same here..which is why I always vehemently support the separation of church and state.

I do believe that Mateen was not driven by or aligned with any religion directly...but I do think his father had an influence on him and when that happens...God or Allah is used as "proof" when it really IS about what you cited....and I do know that homosexual sex is tolerated a lot if you don't say you are gay and actually DO marry and have children.

Over the years in the bar...I was almost always attracted to Arab men. Intensity is a turn on for me as a personality trait... as are dark hair and eyes in any race...and the sex was almost always FANTASTIC ..so was the conversation leading up to the sex..and sometimes after...

 

[kallipolis]

Some of the speculation that went on last week about Omar Mateen being gay or closeted doesn't seem to be panning out- the FBI is doubtful and the hard evidence of any homosexual conduct by Mateen hasn't surfaced in all of the information that has been out there in the past week.

There is a big gap between being a repressed gay, and being sexually active. That does not make Mateen less gay.

Mateen's many visits to the gay club were noted by that club's regulars.

 

[EddMarkStarr]

I'm born and raised in the USA, the only home I know.

Islam was never a presence in my life, but times have changed. The people of Islam are all around me now, and their numbers are growing.

Maybe all religions are created equal but Islam carries social pressures that are alien to me as a citizen of the USA. Islam colors every aspect of life to a degree Christianity used to.

Omar Mateen's message is the ultimate wake up call.

Our future will not be the kind we dreamed of - unless Islam changes.

 

[KaraBulut]

But the religion give it a seal of approval to kill and justify.

Not accurate. Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not approve of senseless killings. That doesn't mean that people who practice that religion follow the teachings or don't find some rationalization to justify things that they did long before these religions were even around.

Mateen's many visits to the gay club were noted by that club's regulars.

There's conflicting evidence that he was at the club. The first wife said he went to some unnamed gay clubs. The second wife said that she went with him to "case" the club where the shootings took place (Pulse in Orlando but why would someone who had been to Pulse several times need to case it? Some people that knew him said he was a homophobe; others said he was gay-friendly.

The US broadcast media has been jumping on all sorts of rumors. The print media has been doing a much better job of verifying sources and confirming rumors with the FBI and justice department.

Honestly, I don't know what to believe- the stories have been all over the place but I go back to a statement that I made in another post: where's the evidence? No one has produced proof to back up these statements- like photos, or screen captures of his alleged social media profiles or confirmed information by people who can prove that the guy they think they saw was Mateen.

 

[Telstra]

Not accurate. Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not approve of senseless killings. That doesn't mean that people who practice that religion follow the teachings or don't find some rationalization to justify things that they did long before these religions were even around.


.

Understood but they (some) still use religion as a seal of approval to do what ever.
In Africa like Eat Da Poo Poo pastor for example.

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/threads/450373-Baptist-Pastor-Happy-About-Orlando-Shooting

 

[kallipolis]

Not accurate. Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not approve of senseless killings. That doesn't mean that people who practice that religion follow the teachings or don't find some rationalization to justify things that they did long before these religions were even around.


There's conflicting evidence that he was at the club. The first wife said he went to some unnamed gay clubs. The second wife said that she went with him to "case" the club where the shootings took place (Pulse in Orlando but why would someone who had been to Pulse several times need to case it? Some people that knew him said he was a homophobe; others said he was gay-friendly.

The US broadcast media has been jumping on all sorts of rumors. The print media has been doing a much better job of verifying sources and confirming rumors with the FBI and justice department.

Honestly, I don't know what to believe- the stories have been all over the place but I go back to a statement that I made in another post: where's the evidence? No one has produced proof to back up these statements- like photos, or screen captures of his alleged social media profiles or confirmed information by people who can prove that the guy they think they saw was Mateen.

Time and investigation may well reveal more about Mateen's sexual life.

 

[LeicsDom]

Not accurate. Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not approve of senseless killings. That doesn't mean that people who practice that religion follow the teachings or don't find some rationalization to justify things that they did long before these religions were even around.

And there are, I am sure, millions of Muslims who don't condone senseless killings. Unfortunately there are a minority of people who will use their religion to justify any and all retributions for perceived slights

 

[KaraBulut]

Time and investigation may well reveal more about Mateen's sexual life.

It's an area of investigation that we're all hoping helps clarify a motive. These motives are a lot easier to fathom than insanity, apparently.

And there are, I am sure, millions of Muslims who don't condone senseless killings. Unfortunately there are a minority of people who will use their religion to justify any and all retributions for perceived slights

They'll use their political beliefs. They'll use tribalism. This is a long history of genocide and xenophobia that goes back millennia and seems to be one of the constants in human history.

 

[mikey3000]

Since we now know that this killer was not doing this for Islam, as most of the more factual news reports are now saying. Do you think we could get back onto the actual topic?

I am not convinced either. The FBI says that Mateen was recently radicalized over the net.

 

[kallipolis]

James Comey says Pulse nightclub shooter was inspired ‘by foreign terrorist organizations’ but there is no evidence of a link to a foreign network

This confirms the CIA statement that they have not discovered any link between Mateen, and a terrorist organisation.

 

[mikey3000]

I'm born and raised in the USA, the only home I know.

Islam was never a presence in my life, but times have changed. The people of Islam are all around me now, and their numbers are growing.

Maybe all religions are created equal but Islam carries social pressures that are alien to me as a citizen of the USA. Islam colors every aspect of life to a degree Christianity used to.

Omar Mateen's message is the ultimate wake up call.

Our future will not be the kind we dreamed of - unless Islam changes.

Very well said!!

 

[KaraBulut]

I am not convinced either. The FBI says that Mateen was recently radicalized over the net.

The FBI statements are referring to Mateen as "self-radicalized".

The FBI has said that Mateen was likely self-radicalized through the Internet, and that so far no evidence exists to show he had direct orders from any terrorist groups abroad.

The FBI released unredacted transcripts today where Mateen did reference the US bombings of Iraq and Syria. He also referenced God, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi and Islamic State.

Some of this jumble of claims seems to be connected to an acquaintance of Mateen's- Moner Mohammad Abu-Salha- an American who had blown himself up in Syria.

He also claimed that he had bombs and was going to put explosive vests on the hostages, both of which proved to be false but had the effect of delaying police entry into the club.

This confirms the CIA statement that they have not discovered any link between Mateen, and a terrorist organisation.

Given his history of previous fictitious claims, it is difficult to tell what is real and what was the irrational ranting of Mateen.

Other interesting information that has reported today:

• The investigators are also still going through his phone and credit card history.
• Mateen went on a shopping spree before the shooting, including spending about $9,000 on jewelry.
• Investigators have not found any evidence that Mateen was having homosexual relationships. So far, they have not found any of the social apps on his phone that were mentioned in previous reports (e.g. Grindr). They have also not found any posts or credit card spending that indicated he was interested in men. They have found evidence that he was pursuing sex with women.
• There's increasing evidence that Mateen was obsessed with law enforcement and para-militarism. He was expelled from a criminal justice program in his early 20s for reasons that were unclear. He then took a job as a prison guard. He ended up working for a security firm (now known as G4S, formerly and ironically known as Wackenhut).
• The security firm that Mateen worked for submitted a mental health attestation however the psychologist who is named in the documents claims that she never saw Mateen and was not practicing in the state of Florida at the time.
• Mateen claimed that Osama bin Laden was his uncle (apparently unaware that bin Laden was Saudi).

 

[kallipolis]

The security firm that Mateen worked for submitted a mental health attestation however the psychologist who is named in the documents claims that she never saw Mateen and was not practicing in the state of Florida at the time.

G4S will need to answer a few questions, for Mateen's mental state is an issue that needs further investigation.

 

[LeicsDom]

G4S will need to answer a few questions, for Mateen's mental state is an issue that needs further investigation.

In the UK G4S are known for their shoddy procedures, their fraudulent practices and their appalling business dealings

 

[kallipolis]

In the UK G4S are known for their shoddy procedures, their fraudulent practices and their appalling business dealings

We have them here in Greece delivering cash to various banks.