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If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

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If you choose to interpret it that way, sure.

Doesn't universalize it into being a fact of everyone's intent.

I would say I'm pretty ordinary and that people don't usually have a specific or marked prejudgment of my sexual preference from seeing or meeting me--- which, due to the heterosexual majority of the human population, typically means people default to assuming you're straight until you tell them otherwise.

And I would say that my ability to say so is not a sign of a dysfunction or -any- deliberate effort on my part to "be" something unnatural to me.

Like your post and many in this thread are claiming.

The bold part of your remarks is exactly the idea I wish to challenge.

People often assume I'm straight based on my demeanour. That's their mistake. Occasionally, if a person's conception of heterosexuality is of a beer-swilling jock who gets drunk at sports bars whilst shouting "Yawww" when a goal is scored and is otherwise occupied with remarks about women's tits, they will assume I am gay. But they will assume it of any male who does not do these things. Again, that's their mistake. I have no interest in catering to their assumptions of convenience. And I have no interest in seeing other people identify their sexuality or their character against that flawed kind of standard.
 
Also, to say "it's just semantics" is like saying "faggot" and "bigger" are just words. What words we chose and what actually stands behind both the choice and the origin of the expression.

Well they ARE just words. Fucking vile words but nevertheless, words.
 
So as I said in my previous post, we agree the word is bad/awkward/inapt.

So what would you suggest instead? Or is any cognizance of any difference between effeminate and less effeminate gay men inherently offensive to acknowledge in any form?

Just say masculine, or whatever else best describes your traits and qualities. Don't use inherently homophobic terminology.
 
Mitch, your internalized homophobia or lack thereof is not the focus of this thread. If you'd read beyond my initial post (the purpose of which was simply stirring the pot obviously)? You'd have seen that it's not about how you act or perceive yourself, but what words you use to describe it. Just because you're outraged that a term you never thought twice before using has heavy baggage attached to it, doesn't make the baggage not there.

Same as if I called Asians "mongoloids" and claimed I didn't consider it offensive (or - for more accuracy, of an Asian called himself so).

Interesting, isn't it, that it's always the homophobic terms whose offensiveness is "debatable" and a "matter of semantics"...
 
The problem with militants like yourself, is very much that you seem to think you're self made experts on what being gay means to other gay people simply because you happen to be also. You're not. You don't get to describe the term straight-acting as offensive to gay people as a fact, because its not a fact. If it was true for most gay people, its only a generalization, much like stereotypes are.

I AM STRAIGHT-ACTING, feel free to loathe me. I'm not going to change who i am just because you don't like it. It is YOUR problem, and anyone else who has an issue with the term. Most people who have an issue just don't 'get' it, which is fine, but no justification for jumping on the bandwagon that it represents shame or repression or an intent to stigmatize effeminate gay men.

I use the term straight-acting as an identifier. I do not use it before, or in place of gay. I say i'm gay, just like every other gay person says they are. But, if someone makes a comment that they'd never have guessed i was gay, or they didn't have a clue (and this has happened a lot in my personal experience), i'll say something like "yeah well, i'm more of a straight-acting type".

For guys that who identify as straight-acting, the traditional gay stereotype is generally disliked, foremost because it fails to represent them. For most gay guys, stereotypes are disliked full stop, especially the traditional one. No gay guy, whether butch or effeminate appreciates having their sexual orientation belittle their personage. The traditional 'camp' stereotype does exactly that, by attacking our masculinity.
I'm not saying here that effeminate men are somehow weak links in the gay cause to be accepted, far from it. The stereotype exists because effeminate men are more visible. But what i am saying is that some gay guys seem intent on maintaining that sterotype by dismissing any other stereotype that comes along.
It seems that its only gay men who refuse to adopt any labels that get a nod of approval from stereotypicaly gay guys, and straight-acting gays are problematic, repressed or ashamed. Its a transferal of bitterness as far as i'm concerned. You see, if nobody used stereotypes, it wouldn't change anything, it wouldn't stop people being themselves, however they are. Some camp guys loathe the fact that some gay men are naturally less effeminate, and that creates a sense of bitterness, because ultimately as gay men, we ARE attracted to that which is male (thus, effminate ideals are generally less appealing). Then along comes a sterotype, adopted by some gay men themselves (not imposed on us by straights in the way that rolyo imposes 'breeders' on straights, which i find just as loathsome btw) and now suddenly its not a case of gay men being themselves, but gay men undermining the traditional stereotype. Its not true, and its offensive, to try and undermine other gay men, like myself, who are perfectly secure and unashamed in our sexuality, by driving away any stereotype other than the age old typical, whilst at the same time moaning that steroetypes are bad full stop. If that is what you believe, you wouldn't be trying to affirm one over the other, you'd just allow gays to identify as they identify themselves, whether you like it or not.

How many of you pipe up when straight-acting is used by one gay, but sit back and have no problem with the usage of the terms, queer, queen or diva by another eh?? Its offensive to argue that effeminate descriptors are fine but that masculine ones are an assault on the effeminate. I don't like the traditional stereotype, you might not like my own identifying term straight-acting, but at least i don't go around attacking you for yours.

You need to grow up and let gay men who are different, BE different, instead of making out you're an international spokesperson for an entire community.

I have no guilt, no shame, no need to justify myself to the likes of you. So yeah, loathe me, its water off a duck's back.

Mary please.

You come across so defensive one can’t help but wonder which nerves he hit.

I know this terrain, I used to be you, congratulating myself how “guy,” I was, how I wasn’t’ that gay, thinking how normal and what a gift I was to gay men everywhere.

Protest that if you want. I don’t believe you. That permeates your post.

For guys who call themselves “SA” the general gay stereotype is disliked because they don’t want to be associated with it, and not because it’s not really them, because they have a problem being associated with it – and next time you feel inclined to tell your “straight” friends who’re all atwitter at how straight you appear – perhaps you might say that gay men populate a whole wonderful spectrum INSTEAD of telling them that really you’re just a straight guy who sucks cock.

Because in the end YOU ARE NOT STRIAGHT ACTING UNLESS YOU FUCK TWAT. That is the ONLY behavior common to all straight men.

Period.

“SA” is a completely queer defined stereotype used to distance the user from negative internal emotions about one’s own gay.

There it is.
 
Mitch, your internalized homophobia or lack thereof is not the focus of this thread. If you'd read beyond my initial post (the purpose of which was simply stirring the pot obviously)? You'd have seen that it's not about how you act or perceive yourself, but what words you use to describe it. Just because you're outraged that a term you never thought twice before using has heavy baggage attached to it, doesn't make the baggage not there.

Same as if I called Asians "mongoloids" and claimed I didn't consider it offensive (or - for more accuracy, of an Asian called himself so).

Interesting, isn't it, that it's always the homophobic terms whose offensiveness is "debatable" and a "matter of semantics"...

I disagree, it is about how one perceives oneself at it's very core.

The need to distance oneself from a "stereotype," by stereotype. Since there is no common straight "acting" (save twat) what does it mean? It means adherence to some kind of cultural definition of "guy," that explicitly excludes evidence of "gay behavior."

Count how often these guys reference how "people' would never guess they are gay. SO what.

It is precicesly about how one percieves onself.
 
Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

To the best of my knowledge, no straight person has ever accused me of "acting straight".

Neither have I been accused... except for some JUB members who insist that, if you appear to be straight to the general public, you are acting that way and denying your feminine side and behaviour. Gay men are, apparently, queens by nature.
 
Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

Neither have I been accused... except for some JUB members who insist that, if you appear to be straight to the general public, you are acting that way and denying your feminine side and behaviour. Gay men are, apparently, queens by nature.

Gay men are who they are - I've never seen a self labeled (have you really seen any other kind) SA guy (including myself) who wasn't ultimately trying to convince himself.
 
Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

It's not about how you act or how others think you act. It is about what words you use to describe it - to yourself and others.

I agree and acknowledge the term is bad, or at least up for incredible misinterpretation. However I think there isn't a much better one out there. I also think assigning an entire philosophy to someone based off their use of it when there isn't a widely used better one is unfair.

When I see the reactions in this thread to the term, I question if the offense is caused by the term itself or the distinction being made between masculine and effeminate gay men. Which is why I asked in the thread several times what else people would prefer, and if the distinction itself is what causes the offense.

Unfortunately we have a very poor amount of terms... we don't have an equivalent of "African American" vs. "Black American" vs. "Negro" vs. etc. for some of these things so that people have a wide range of choices to describe themselves with and avoid misunderstanding. If I feel the need to type up a paragraph to say the same thing as "straight acting" without offending people I'm not sure how to more succinctly express the same meaning in a discussion.

The bold part of your remarks is exactly the idea I wish to challenge.

People often assume I'm straight based on my demeanour. That's their mistake. Occasionally, if a person's conception of heterosexuality is of a beer-swilling jock who gets drunk at sports bars whilst shouting "Yawww" when a goal is scored and is otherwise occupied with remarks about women's tits, they will assume I am gay. But they will assume it of any male who does not do these things. Again, that's their mistake. I have no interest in catering to their assumptions of convenience. And I have no interest in seeing other people identify their sexuality or their character against that flawed kind of standard.

Thankfully, how people choose to view or describe themselves is not a matter up for your personal approval or disapproval, though it is also not something you need to emulate if you don't want to. You can describe yourself in any manner you wish and I frankly have no say about it-- nor am I in this thread telling you that you are wrong or suffering flaws for your choice in how to do so.

Just say masculine, or whatever else best describes your traits and qualities. Don't use inherently homophobic terminology.

I have a suspicion that if the thread had been "what do people think when they see 'masc' in a personal ad", this discussion would have still almost immediately gone to a discussion of internalized homophobia and offensive terminology.

Do you think that's untrue?

Interesting, isn't it, that it's always the homophobic terms whose offensiveness is "debatable" and a "matter of semantics"...

That's the way language works. You can't honestly say that Tx-Beau and a total random stranger calling you a faggot carries precisely the same interpretation to you. However I think this discussion has shown the complete opposite of what you are saying. It is, as Mitchy said... fine, validated, perfectly acceptable to be a self-proclaimed queen, diva, girl, bitch or whatever else. But if someone says straight-acting, god help you.

Mary please.

You come across so defensive one can’t help but wonder which nerves he hit.

I disagree. Mitchymo's post spoke very well. I think this forum does frequently suffer the notion of "if you were a healthy gay man, you would have evolved exactly as I have done, you'd feel exactly as I do, you'd behave as I do and you'd view yourself and your identity as I do."

That's the point at which we are saying the stereotype is equivalent to the fact of being gay, however benevolent the intent may have started out, and however much it may come from a place of people wanting to help others be self-accepting. Would you describe me, or Mitchymo, as blatant homophobes or enemies of gay rights? This thread didn't start as me or Mitchy beginning a discussion about how being an effeminate or stereotypical gay guy is bad, however it did turn into plenty of people essentially saying we're guilty of any number of social crimes by association.
 
Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

Also, to say "it's just semantics" is like saying "faggot" and "bigger" are just words. What words we chose and what actually stands behind both the choice and the origin of the expression.

Are you comparing ¨straight¨ with ¨faggot¨? Because one is a word, while the other is an insult, if used directly at someone. Some of us don´t think ¨gay¨is an insult if it´s said directly at someone, so why should ¨straight¨ be?

Now I am wondering...do any straight guys say they are "gay acting"? It would seem they should since a lot of straight women like gay guys.

Some do. Mario Vaquerizo is the best example that comes in my mind, but I don´t know how much non-Spain residents know about him.
 
Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

To the best of my knowledge, no straight person has ever accused me of "acting straight".

Lex

Whether they do or not, peoples perception of others isn't what I am referring to. It is the people who decide to consider themselves "straight acting" and trying to not appear "gay."
 
Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

Whether they do or not, peoples perception of others isn't what I am referring to. It is the people who decide to consider themselves "straight acting" and trying to not appear "gay."

Are "trying not to appear gay" and "not intentionally trying to seem gay", to you, the same thing?

Honest question.
 
Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

I agree and acknowledge the term is bad, or at least up for incredible misinterpretation. However I think there isn't a much better one out there. I also think assigning an entire philosophy to someone based off their use of it when there isn't a widely used better one is unfair.

When I see the reactions in this thread to the term, I question if the offense is caused by the term itself or the distinction being made between masculine and effeminate gay men. Which is why I asked in the thread several times what else people would prefer, and if the distinction itself is what causes the offense.

Unfortunately we have a very poor amount of terms... we don't have an equivalent of "African American" vs. "Black American" vs. "Negro" vs. etc. for some of these things so that people have a wide range of choices to describe themselves with and avoid misunderstanding. If I feel the need to type up a paragraph to say the same thing as "straight acting" without offending people I'm not sure how to more succinctly express the same meaning in a discussion.



Thankfully, how people choose to view or describe themselves is not a matter up for your personal approval or disapproval, though it is also not something you need to emulate if you don't want to. You can describe yourself in any manner you wish and I frankly have no say about it-- nor am I in this thread telling you that you are wrong or suffering flaws for your choice in how to do so.



I have a suspicion that if the thread had been "what do people think when they see 'masc' in a personal ad", this discussion would have still almost immediately gone to a discussion of internalized homophobia and offensive terminology.

Do you think that's untrue?



That's the way language works. You can't honestly say that Tx-Beau and a total random stranger calling you a faggot carries precisely the same interpretation to you. However I think this discussion has shown the complete opposite of what you are saying. It is, as Mitchy said... fine, validated, perfectly acceptable to be a self-proclaimed queen, diva, girl, bitch or whatever else. But if someone says straight-acting, god help you.



I disagree. Mitchymo's post spoke very well. I think this forum does frequently suffer the notion of "if you were a healthy gay man, you would have evolved exactly as I have done, you'd feel exactly as I do, you'd behave as I do and you'd view yourself and your identity as I do."

That's the point at which we are saying the stereotype is equivalent to the fact of being gay, however benevolent the intent may have started out, and however much it may come from a place of people wanting to help others be self-accepting. Would you describe me, or Mitchymo, as blatant homophobes or enemies of gay rights? This thread didn't start as me or Mitchy beginning a discussion about how being an effeminate or stereotypical gay guy is bad, however it did turn into plenty of people essentially saying we're guilty of any number of social crimes by association.

"Straight Acting" is exactly about how being effeminate is bad. There is simply no other reason to describe oneself thus.

Any person upon meeting you will see you. What your mannerisms are, whether you "fit" a stereotype or not. "SA" is not about rights or meta whatever, it's a label a guy puts on himself, a self stereotype that has to do with how he feels bout HIMSELF.

I could care less about wanting to Help people becoming more accepting - if they ask, I'll do what I can, but other than that, people move at their own speed. This does not negate the fact that there ARE commonalities of experience and issues that recur. He did not invent SA. It's not "just his way."

If he's going to use that term he's going to have to deal with all the baggage it carries. What he's asking us to do is NOT to see him as an individual, but as the stereotype he finds more acceptable than that other one.
 
Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

Firstly, why have you started your post with 'mary please'. You do know that i'm a guy right? You are doing the very thing that homphobes do. You are making me out to be a woman. Maybe in your mindset, you're just trying to be funny, but its not much of a joke.

Secondly, i am being defensive yes, too right i am. This post has attacked a percentage of gay guys, albeit a small percentage, but to which i include myself. The OP made me angry. I won't remain silent whilst people try to impose their own explanations of who and what i am. You did this in your post to, claiming that i'm like you used to be. Its rubbish. I don't see myself as being 'not one of them' or being god's gift to men by virtue of my absence of effeminacy.

Lastly, in response to this:

You say that we don't want to be associated with the stereotype, rather than it not being representative, as if the two things are completely unconnected. The whole point is that the two are very connected. I don't like the gay stereotype because it doesn't represent how i feel about myself and what i go for. Its nothing to do with a looking down on the stereotype itself.

Firstly, because it amused me to do so, I like irony.

Second see above.
 
Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

Are "trying not to appear gay" and "not intentionally trying to seem gay", to you, the same thing?

Honest question.

Yes.

The funniest part about it is that it doesn't even matter in the long run because there will be people who perceive you a certain way once they know you're homosexual anyway. I personally don't hesitate or question the things I do, say or like because it might seem "gay" to do, say or like.
 
In this thread: people think that their experience applies to everyone else.

Get over yourselves, who put you in charge of gay?
 
Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

But yet here i am having to defend myself against the likes of you who insist you know me better than i know myself.

If i label myself as a Tottenham fan, it doesn't mean i think less of Liverpool supporters. Its no different when i use the term straight-acting. Its how i feel best describes me. It is my right to identify as i feel best reflects my identity.

Its not my problem that others can't accept difference.

You don't HAVE to explain or defend yourself to anyone. You are CHOOSING to do so. "Others" are going to make their judgments whether you accept it or not.

There it is. Such is life and other insipid banalities.

So long as that term is used, there will be arguments like this one. You are not entitled to be exempt just 'cause.

You will listen to what I say, or you won't, no skin off my back. It's not MY problem that you don't like the baggage that comes with it.

And where do all of these protestations get us. Precisely the same place we've gotten arguing this in other places on this board.
 
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