Queers against Israeli Apartheid

[Glafna]

The name of a group that has been forced to back out of Toronto's Pride Parade this year due to aggressive by the latest mayor, and has the Jewish Defense Leauge, a multi-national group that fights against hatred towards the Jewish Community, lobbying for the Prides funding to be cut.

I went to pride for the first time last year, I loved it, and I loved that they were there.
However, might I be wrong in thinking that they are on the right frame of thinking?

Dr Shimon Samuels, a reputable man who has had a distinguished career,
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DBID=1&TMID=610&LNGID=1&FID=381&PID=0&IID=738
And Micheal Lucas, owner of Lucas Entertainment, Both seem to disagree with my original analysis.
According to this article, Dr. Samuels declares gays who are apart of this group are "self-hating", and Micheal Lucas, on a protest against QaIA in New York at the LGBT Center, which apparently holds meetings and events often of 'anti-Israeli groups', who has also called for funding to be pulled due to said meetings, stated that the President of the Board of Directors, Mario Palumbo, and its executive director, Glennda Testone, are staunchly anti-Zionist and anti-Israeli, basing his opinon on their apparent refusal to meet with jewish groups including the Jewish Council for Public Affairs
http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=223236

And the current mayor of Toronto, Rob Ford, has declared them to be an anti-Israeli group, and has been working to pull funding unless his office recieves a legal binding contract from Pride Toronto stating that QaIA will not be apart of the events. QaIA has stated that they will not, as they do not want the funding to be pulled, and PT is fine with that.

This blogger, who is rather obviously opinionated against anyone that speaks against Israel, has put it in interesting terms. 'Toronto Pride Still Associates with Anti-Semites" http://kaffir-kanuck.ca/2011/05/24/1281/. Just a note.

http://vimeo.com/24222860 Now for QaIA.

I think more or less the video, and the following links, states their opinion, and makes their claims justified.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1957644.stm -Desmond Tutu on Israel
http://www.haaretz.com/news/jimmy-c...d-policies-worse-than-south-africa-s-1.206865 - Jimmy Carter
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/02/israel_demography_democracy_or_apartheid - Ehud Barak

My question to you is, Why is there such a push by Jewish organizations and members of the Gay community against those speaking something negative about Israel? What's the problem here?

Oh and one more thing on Micheal Lucas.
http://queersagainstapartheid.org/michael-lucas’s-resume-of-pinkwashing-and-islamophobia/

 

[rareboy]

Meh.

Ford would like to cut funding altogether. He's no friend of the homos.

As for the rest....tempest in a teacup.

But Pride should be a celebration and not the platform for global political causes.

 

[Glafna]

I agree partially. The Gay Rights movement in itself is a global political cause.

However as for the questions, WHY is there such a push against even suggesting there is something not right with how Israel runs things

 

[Glafna]

Oh I know Toriko, I provided information on a protest on New York, based around the "Anti-Israel' statements of QaIA

 

[landers]

Personally I'd like to see the pride parade cut altogether. It's become far to corporate.

 

[bankside]

When choosing between "off-topic" free speech, and "on-topic" controlled speech, I think it is usually far better to err on the side of free speech.

Particularly when it comes to governments using funding to manipulate speech, then I think defiance is essential. All's well until some asshole (yes; I'm looking at you, Rob Ford.) decides he can use public funds to determine who says what at an event.

In that case I'd be calling it the "Toronto Anti-Israeli-Apartheid Gay Pride Parade."

It's one thing if the organizing committee decides not to include them. It's another thing if they bow to crazy illegitimate anti-democratic political pressure not to include them.

None of this has anything to do with my opinion of the group's message, however. I think they would be far more effective if they spoke out against Israeli Apartheid (a real problem) but also took a brief moment to mention the insanity that is Palestinian Hamas and its plans for the region, which approach genocide, and how they've just been let back into Palestinian government without having renounced violence or their land claims to Israel proper.

 

[Glafna]

None of this has anything to do with my opinion of the group's message, however. I think they would be far more effective if they spoke out against Israeli Apartheid (a real problem) but also took a brief moment to mention the insanity that is Palestinian Hamas and its plans for the region, which approach genocide, and how they've just been let back into Palestinian government without having renounced violence or their land claims to Israel proper.

I fully agree. However how many organizations are already doing that? Biased and unbiased? Yet how many organizations are looking at Israel?

And that's the pathetic nature of all of this. Ford is using Pride and QaIA against each other as scapegoats.

 

[shore89]

Israel has the most progressive gay rights policies in the middle east and the world with civil unions, gay adoptions and an integrated military (unlike the US still). Israel's neighbors still hang people for being gay.

Also, the situation in Israel is extremely complex, but to call it apartheid is misleading and incredibly ignorant. Israeli-Arabs have full rights within the state of Israel; full voting rights, there are Arab politicians, Arab supreme court members, and anti-discrimination laws on the books.

To say that a minority with full rights lives under apartheid is a slap in the face to the millions of black South Africans that had absolutely no rights.

If you really want to fight for human rights, you should look into organizations that help bring gay Palestinians to Israel under human rights amnesty.

 

[Glafna]

Israel has the most progressive gay rights policies in the middle east and the world with civil unions, gay adoptions and an integrated military (unlike the US still). Israel's neighbors still hang people for being gay.

Also, the situation in Israel is extremely complex, but to call it apartheid is misleading and incredibly ignorant. Israeli-Arabs have full rights within the state of Israel; full voting rights, there are Arab politicians, Arab supreme court members, and anti-discrimination laws on the books.

To say that a minority with full rights lives under apartheid is a slap in the face to the millions of black South Africans that had absolutely no rights.

If you really want to fight for human rights, you should look into organizations that help bring gay Palestinians to Israel under human rights amnesty.

So there's no reason for people to criticize Israel? Whatsoever?

Thats naivety.

 

[shore89]

So there's no reason for people to criticize Israel? Whatsoever?

Thats naivety.

No. Naivety is backhandedly supporting Hamas and Hezbollah--two groups that would literally kill you and I for who we love, that have it in their charter that all Jews should die, and suppress the freedoms and wellbeing of their own people for political gain. Supporting those groups by demonizing Israel through lies is naive.

And, of course there is reason to criticize Israel-- there has been perpetual conflict in the region for the past 60 years and both sides have their faults. Israel has made mistakes and there are major policy disagreements. But there is a huge difference between criticism and singling one country out and literally lying about it.

Israel is not an apartheid state, and the comparison is not only insulting to South Africans that suffered, but an actual lie and extremely dangerous to the peace process.

This would be like if I decided that I made a group called Transexuals Against Hispanic Genocide in the United States--in order to be "critical" of United States immigration policy--its a lie.

 

[Glafna]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Israeli_border_demonstrations

 

[Perfidiosity]

So there's no reason for people to criticize Israel? Whatsoever?

Thats naivety.

I agree. There's plenty of reasons to criticize Israel and all too often any criticism of Israel is deemed unacceptable. You're an anti-semite or a Nazi sympathizer. I'm really sick of this. What it means is that some people actually aren't Islamophobes and don't like to see innocent people treated like crap. What Israel is doing is disgusting and it has nothing to do with them being Jewish, it has to do with them being just as bad as those they claim to be fighting against.

 

[MarquisOrias]

No. Naivety is backhandedly supporting Hamas and Hezbollah--two groups that would literally kill you and I for who we love, that have it in their charter that all Jews should die,

I don't know about Hamas, but saying Hezbollah are against jews is completely untrue. They are against Israel, not jews. Not the same thing.

Very recently in Lebanon (Hezbollah home territory) they even had Hezbollah's blessing in rebuilding a Synagogue for the dwindling jewish community who are hoping to rebuild.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...o-glory-despite-tensions-with-israel-1.308626

"Renovations on the ruined synagogue in central Beirut began in 2009 after an agreement between various religious denominations and permission from the Lebanese government, planning authorities and even Hezbollah. "

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,660675,00.html

But How Does Hezbollah Feel About A New Synagogue?

Hariri's successor, Fouad Siniora, had no objections to the plan. But how would the radical Islamic group Hezbollah, and Israel's sworn enemy, feel about it all? For some time now, no political decisions have been made in Lebanon without the approval of the influential Shiite militia. In September 2008, a spokesman of the organization said: "We respect Judaism, just as we respect Christianity. Our only problem is with Israel." And so, in July 2009, the renovations began.

Against Israelis =/= Against Jews.

 

[BostonPirate]

Similarly, an unnatural level of hatred for Israel is often apologized and covered by a mock attempt to seem reasonable by "Only criticizing" Israel.

Lets get real here for one second....

Isreal does some fucked up shit once in a while and they have been cornered into some tough stances, but the pallestinians started hijacking the planes in the seventies, we had the eighties with shoulder monted rocket bombs, and then we had the 90's and 2000s riddled with suicide bombs.

Now in the 2010's we see the general population still voting in terrorists in their elections to run their nation.

Now where in the fuck does that leave space for war mongerers like Netanyahu to lose power, and rellevancy?

If the pallestinians want sympathy, they need to first stop blowing children up, and second, they need to act responsibly and elect people that will fight for peace diplomatically with Israel.

When your political party wont even agree that those they need to negotiate with even have the right to exist, it makes the whole proposition rather moot, don't you think?

 

[FoxMulder]

I spoke with Ford personally about this issue on the phone. He's to fucking stupid to understand it. He called it "Queers Against Israel" even though I corrected him a few time. He said he doesn't care what Israel does and thinks it's a hate group (which I found comical coming from him).

I'm pissed that he's doing it, but it's for his own agenda. He's to stupid to know or care about the conflict, he's just looking for any reason to stop the gays.

My Jewish friends and I have spent time talking about this issue, and we share a common ground.

I believe that Israel and Palestine both have the right to exist as much as any other country. I also believe that Israel's treatment of Palestinians is wrong. I mean, up until last year children's toys, eating utensils, and even fucking ketchup were illegal imports.

Yes, you have to be tough in a part of the world where given the chance many nations would love to destroy you, but it's excuse to treat people like second class citizens while Jews, Gays, Roma, and other minorities went through similar situations in Germany before the holocaust. I don't know how or when it moved to be the case that the second anyone questions or critiques Israel they automatically become an anti-semite. Jerry Seinfeld used to joke about how Uncle Leo would say everyone who disagreed with him or if something he didn't like happened was an antisemite. Are we at that point now? I criticize christianity the most and I'm a christian!

But I digress. QaIA should be aloud to march as pride is very political, and the group, even if you agree or disagree with their message deserves to be heard. In the words of Evelyn Beatrice Hall "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

 

[shore89]

I don't know about Hamas, but saying Hezbollah are against jews is completely untrue. They are against Israel, not jews. Not the same thing.

Against Israelis =/= Against Jews.

Simply not true. They blew up a Jewish cultural center in Argentina in the 90's killing 95 people, mostly children. But I guess they must of been Zionist pigs. You can also watch some of their leaders talk about the Jews on youtube, entertaining stuff if you have a chance on a rainy day.

Also, the notion that you are going to get called an anti-semite if you criticize Israel is ridiculous. Nobody is going to call you anti-semitic if you have a disagreement over Israel's policy.

At the same time, if you accept every other country in the world's right to exist, but do not think the Israel (the one Jewish country) has a right to simply be, then yea, you might be an anti-semite. It's kind of like when people say, "you can't disagree with the gays or else you get called a bigot" usually its cause you are one.

 

[Glafna]

Similarly, an unnatural level of hatred for Israel is often apologized and covered by a mock attempt to seem reasonable by "Only criticizing" Israel.

Lets get real here for one second....

Isreal does some fucked up shit once in a while and they have been cornered into some tough stances, but the pallestinians started hijacking the planes in the seventies, we had the eighties with shoulder monted rocket bombs, and then we had the 90's and 2000s riddled with suicide bombs.

Now in the 2010's we see the general population still voting in terrorists in their elections to run their nation.

Now where in the fuck does that leave space for war mongerers like Netanyahu to lose power, and rellevancy?

If the pallestinians want sympathy, they need to first stop blowing children up, and second, they need to act responsibly and elect people that will fight for peace diplomatically with Israel.
When your political party wont even agree that those they need to negotiate with even have the right to exist, it makes the whole proposition rather moot, don't you think?

I have no hatred for Israel on it's own.
As the 'holy land' that people have slaughtered each other for years for? I'd like it nuked and forgotten.

And I am not sympathizing with the people who legitimately do hate Judaism and Israel and commit terrorist activities.

But the point is. That people have a right to speak their opinions, and for them to be made pariahs over it, especially when Israel isn't always in the right. Which is the whole point of this thread. NOT to pick sides in a conflict that rages on the other side of the world.

 

[Glafna]

But I digress. QaIA should be aloud to march as pride is very political, and the group, even if you agree or disagree with their message deserves to be heard. In the words of Evelyn Beatrice Hall "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

EXACTLY my point

 

[BostonPirate]

what about the message that Israel should be destroyed at all costs?

is that acceptable? Should Israel tollerate people conspiring to destroy them rather than TALK to them? How do you give free speech to an enemy that is sworn to kill you?

Its hard to defend a group of people who are working to eradicate a race.

Its all foolishness. I am hard on Israel for more than one reasons in my worldview, but Palestininans that want Hammas to represent them politically have nerve expecting Israel to allow that kind of speech.

it is just not common sense.

 

[bankside]

Queers against Israeli Apartheid is not Hamas.

Ah, and they participated in the Edmonton Pride Parade without incident.