The stereotypical Gay Man

[freefall]

^Yet I don't see overglorification of GLBT taking us anywhere.

 

[freefall]

^Then I would say it's a very desperate attempt, since overglorification only results in "finally fuckin' noticing".

I'm not going to debate about this any further; it will end up being Yoko Ono's 'Voice Piece for Soprano'.

Everybody's entitled to have an opinion about this very individual view of sexual orientation and I don't see why it ought to be viewed as the same for everyone.

Oh well.

 

[Rolyo85]

I know, right? And as usual, the "just one more thing" brigade ignored most of what I said about the effects of being gay to our development as people growing up. Nothing new.

 

[Medusa]

I have now come to realize the stereotypical are not the ones, prancing around wearing bright ass colors, screaming in high pitch voice acting a female bitch. But the ones that are thugs, macho guys, and guys spend lots of time in the gym. Viewing a few porn videos, has given me some insight, and talking to a nurse at the The Med these thug out, gangsta are now in my eyes the stereotypical gay guy. It has gotten to the point whenever I see a guy in urban wear, or a guy that give off the macho vibe, I automatically assume that he is gay. Granted most of these cats are on the DL, and it's funny that most of them think they are really fooling people into believing they are straight.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

mr ans mrs BIG FOOT is doin well in on all lands planet earth
* here ya papa it got suap big foot on it*

dat so kind
*well one a hope*
wot?
* neva mind

ha

 

[Rolyo85]

I am confused as to why you keep bringing up football?

Because he wants to make it into a war of stereotypes, which it isn't.

 

[eastofeden]

Because he wants to make it into a war of stereotypes, which it isn't.

Because it was in the initial post as an excuse to make a new stereotype of gay men which was the point of this thread.

Sorry...I don't know how to multi quote so I either don't quote at all or I quote the last person.

I am not the one stereotyping anyone. I don't agree with the people who are.

 

[Corny]

Maybe we can agree that the stereotypical gay man is not the average gay man?

 

[Benjoe]

There's a lot of good points made in this thread by a range of people on different sides of the arguement and they are all valid. I don't think there is a clear right and wrong here.

Being gay is not something that "just so happen to be so" about us. It is at the very core of who we are from the very beginning of our lives, and it has shaped us more than perhaps ANY other single factor while growing up

For many people i'm sure this is true, but not for everyone. We didn't all grow up knowing we were gay from the age of 8. For some of us it kind of crept up on us and we didn't figure it out until our late teenage years after most of our personality forming had already happened. Sexuality can be different for everyone, we can interpret it differently, think about it differently and there's nothing wrong with that.

For me personally being gay is just about liking guys. I just don't see it as being that big a deal. For some people being gay seems to shape them to a higher degree, it seems to affect how they walk, how they talk, how they think, how they behave, how they identify themselves, how they dress and there is nothing wrong with that. We are all individuals. I have noticed though a sentiment that the gay guys who appear masculine and straight are somehow closeted and trying to hide their sexuality. This isn't always the case and that's one stereotype that is wrong.

Being gay doesn't come with a rule book.

I was wrong to say that gay guys in gay pride events should tone it down. I can see that now, we should all just accept each other for who we are and embrace our differences and work together to achieve our common goals of better treatment and rights by the straight community.

 

[ixthrock]

... Being gay is not something that "just so happen to be so" about us. It is at the very core of who we are from the very beginning of our lives, and it has shaped us more than perhaps ANY other single factor while growing up. ...

Hmmm, now I'm having problems multi-quoting, so I'll take this one at a time.

The above quote was one of Harry Hay's core stances. I met Harry before his death, hung out with him and had conversations with him, but here I'm not sure I agreed with him. I knew I was different from a very early age; Harry said that this is true of all of us gays - yet I did not then and do not now associate that difference with my sexuality. The things that set me apart from my straight counterparts (oops, wait, I don't have counterparts ) are the very same things that set me apart from other gay men. My brain works differently from most people I run across, regardless of their sexuality, and that is what has "shaped me more than any other single factor while growing up."

Still, I have a lot of respect for Harry and his (and your) perspective - and acknowledge that it is definitely right teaching, regardless of whether it is true or not.

 

[ixthrock]

I have noticed though a sentiment that the gay guys who appear masculine and straight are somehow closeted and trying to hide their sexuality. This isn't always the case and that's one stereotype that is wrong.

don't forget "suffering from internalized homophobia." I take exception to "appear straight," however it rears its ugly head. It is only valid to me If I'm actually watching a guy fucking a girl. Then he could be said to "appear straight." Otherwise "appearing straight" is as ill-defined and ill-advised as saying that David Duchovny in drag "appears gay." Or, as the way kids do it these days, critique someone by saying "dude, that's gay..." Can we flip this on its head, kind of like reclaiming the word "faggot," can we start publicly insulting people by saying "OMG that's so str8!"

I was wrong to say that gay guys in gay pride events should tone it down. I can see that now, we should all just accept each other for who we are and embrace our differences and work together to achieve our common goals of better treatment and rights by the straight community.

This is so awesome, and so rarely happens on these boards - a weighing of expressed opinions, a change of heart, followed by a public declaration and apologia. You deserve a lot of credit for using reason and having heart.

Sorry, I'm distracted by a lot of noise in the house and can't give you appropriately-leveled applause right now. Have a smilie

 

[Rolyo85]

For many people i'm sure this is true, but not for everyone. We didn't all grow up knowing we were gay from the age of 8. For some of us it kind of crept up on us and we didn't figure it out until our late teenage years after most of our personality forming had already happened. Sexuality can be different for everyone, we can interpret it differently, think about it differently and there's nothing wrong with that.

That is a good point. However, I know a LOT of gay guys personally due to my field, and I have literally only ever met one guy who claimed he didn't really know he was gay until his late teens. So in my experience those people are an exception, and I still think they subconsciously are aware of the difference. But I'll go there in my response to ixthrock.

For me personally being gay is just about liking guys. I just don't see it as being that big a deal. For some people being gay seems to shape them to a higher degree, it seems to affect how they walk, how they talk, how they think, how they behave, how they identify themselves, how they dress and there is nothing wrong with that. We are all individuals. I have noticed though a sentiment that the gay guys who appear masculine and straight are somehow closeted and trying to hide their sexuality. This isn't always the case and that's one stereotype that is wrong.

Being gay doesn't come with a rule book.

Ok, answer me this - what IS a big deal to you? What about you do you consider to be a big deal, something that has shaped you to a higher degree? I think there is a general misconception in this argument, that somehow acknowledging the huge impact being gay has had on us growing and developing implies that we should look, act, talk or think "gay" or "gayer" than we already do.

I say no such thing.

You can be the manliest man in the world and being gay could have had bigger impact on your life than the twinky stripper in a Chicago gay bar that has a line of men pass through his ass on a nightly basis. Maybe hiding the secret made you go into "butch" stuff like sports, cars and hunting. That led you to become friends with other people who were into these things, and they in turn shaped your interests and thinking further. Then you came out and of course your personality was already set to this course, so you remained just as "manly" as you were before. But in that situation, being gay is NOT something that "just so happens to..." about you, it was the primal driving force for your entire development as a person.

It's just one example, and overly simplified. But I firmly believe that acknowledging how much being gay has impacted us growing up is not about a "degree of gayness" of some sort, but simply of self-awareness - of recognizing the darkness that comes before (a rimjob to whoever catches the quote without googling). And yes, that brings the implication that I am super aware and the "just one more thing" crowd isn't. Sorry, that's how I see it. I can trace so many core things about me to being gay - both before and after coming out - that it is obvious to me that practically nothing else has shaped me to the degree that loving ass has. And I am not even much on the "scene"...

The above quote was one of Harry Hay's core stances. I met Harry before his death, hung out with him and had conversations with him, but here I'm not sure I agreed with him. I knew I was different from a very early age; Harry said that this is true of all of us gays - yet I did not then and do not now associate that difference with my sexuality. The things that set me apart from my straight counterparts (oops, wait, I don't have counterparts ) are the very same things that set me apart from other gay men. My brain works differently from most people I run across, regardless of their sexuality, and that is what has "shaped me more than any other single factor while growing up."

Still, I have a lot of respect for Harry and his (and your) perspective - and acknowledge that it is definitely right teaching, regardless of whether it is true or not.

I firmly believe that even the most clueless among us are subconsciously aware of our sexuality. After all, heterosexuals also spend years of interacting with each other before any conscious sexual urges are formed. When a gay guy interacts with a girl, he does not see a sexually arousing object, his body does not respond physically to her (I am giving a clean example, even those closer to the middle of the Kinsey scale would still respond differently than the straight ones). On the other hand, when we communicate with other males, our brains see a potential sexual or romantic partner, whether we are aware of it or not. In both cases, the way we talk, our body language, reading theirs - it's completely different, and opposite to how a straight guy would be in the corresponding situations. Every human interaction we have in our lives. Every one. I think it is naive to claim that this has no deep repercussions in our development.



------------------


And this is all not even touching on the subject of being aware that you belong to a group of people that the rest of the world sees in dramatically different colors than they see themselves. The perception of others colors our own perception of both ourselves and the world. Which changes us.

Hmmm, now I'm having problems multi-quoting, so I'll take this one at a time.

A side note - I have no idea if there is a "smart" way to do multi-quoting, but I just tend to open all "reply with quote"s in different tabs, respond to those in the separate windows, and then either copy-pasting them in one window, or letting the forum stick them together when I post them in quick succession.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Maybe we can agree that the stereotypical gay man is not the average gay man?

I agree. I think one of the problems in this thread that not everyone is seeing clearly is that someone asserting they're an average gay man and perhaps not necessarily represented by a stereotypical gay man in some dimensions is seen as "offensive." By itself I see no reason it is or should be. Granted I agree with everyone that 1 post in this thread was offensive, but most of the barking hasn't been at him.

For me personally being gay is just about liking guys. I just don't see it as being that big a deal. For some people being gay seems to shape them to a higher degree, it seems to affect how they walk, how they talk, how they think, how they behave, how they identify themselves, how they dress and there is nothing wrong with that. We are all individuals. I have noticed though a sentiment that the gay guys who appear masculine and straight are somehow closeted and trying to hide their sexuality. This isn't always the case and that's one stereotype that is wrong.

don't forget "suffering from internalized homophobia."

Benjoe said it well for me but usually attempts to express that sentiment result in the reaction/accusation ixthrock brought up for discussion.

And that's a form of stereotyping as well. I think people should recognize that in their heat to denounce the harm of stereotyping.

 

[Rolyo85]

As for internalized homophobia.

I have never gotten why everyone gets so offended by being told they suffer from it. It's a subconscious thing, not a conscious choice you have to defend or feel guilty about. every gay guy in the history since people first started defining themselves by sexuality, has suffered from one degree or another of internalized homophobia! It is unavoidable. It is simply a product of growing up in a heteronormative world. When you "know" that being straight is "right", obviously being gay must be "wrong", right? We ALL had that, and many of us got over it, but internalized homophobia goes way deeper, and is often much more subtle. Many people get rid of it, but many others never do. And yes, striving desperately to be "just one of the guys" and "just like straight people" is an indication of internalized homophobia.

Not your fault, so you shouldn't be defensive about it. But the first step in fixing a problem is admitting there is one.

 

[xbuzzerx]

As for internalized homophobia.

I have never gotten why everyone gets so offended by being told they suffer from it. It's a subconscious thing, not a conscious choice you have to defend or feel guilty about. every gay guy in the history since people first started defining themselves by sexuality, has suffered from one degree or another of internalized homophobia! It is unavoidable. It is simply a product of growing up in a heteronormative world. When you "know" that being straight is "right", obviously being gay must be "wrong", right? We ALL had that, and many of us got over it, but internalized homophobia goes way deeper, and is often much more subtle. Many people get rid of it, but many others never do. And yes, striving desperately to be "just one of the guys" and "just like straight people" is an indication of internalized homophobia.

Not your fault, so you shouldn't be defensive about it. But the first step in fixing a problem is admitting there is one.

Because it is an implication that your thought process or your reasoning or your personal viewpoint has been co-opted by what's ultimately some kind of psychological disorder or self esteem issue. It robs agency from the person under accusation and simply says "you've accepted negative things you've been brainwashed to think, you aren't making clear decisions for yourself."

I consider it akin to saying "liberalism is a mental disorder."

 

[CowboyBob]

I'm surprised no one has posted this yet.

 

[Rolyo85]

Because it is an implication that your thought process or your reasoning or your personal viewpoint has been co-opted by what's ultimately some kind of psychological disorder or self esteem issue. It robs agency from the person under accusation and simply says "you've accepted negative things you've been brainwashed to think, you aren't making clear decisions for yourself."

I consider it akin to saying "liberalism is a mental disorder."

Being gay in a heteronormative society, growing up gay, coming out as gay, living as a closeted or out gay person in a heteronormative society are psychologically traumatic things. Psychologically traumatic things create pschological trauma. Like I said, we all - with less than 1% exceptions - start from the same place, with the same "psychological disorder", except it's one that many - I'd go as far as saying MOST - of us can overcome on their own, without medication or professional help.

As long as we accept it is there. I know nobody likes to think there's something wrong with them, but come on - you grew up knowing you were gay - how much easier THIS is to overcome than coming out?

 

[Adrock-JD]

So you're gay. So what. So you're straight. So what. So you're bisexual. So what. So you're asexual. So what.

So you're an alien quadrapodge from sector nine Andromeda galaxy. Please see intergalactic immigration.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

MAN okay 3 letta arrange a way ya think 3 letta fit
* BANGBANGBANG *
ooh
* BANG *
o kay
^ wet teabag ^
o kay
" breast implant ons da run "
o o kay
! ma office desk ans chair !
very tidy
£ WAAAAAAAAAAAAA £
ooh earplugs
@ ma teddy bear nap time @
ooh is see professor
while planet a man write down wot man is
let meet a their mummywees ans a daddawees
Hi mummywees ans daddawees
-o0??0o -
dat was interestin

ans back ta pair a pants
* we is pants *

thankyou

 

[ixthrock]

To multi-quote you click the multi-quote at the bottom right hand corner of each person who you want to quote, then select "reply with quote" when you're done picking.

Which usually works just fine for me.
The problem I was running into was selecting a post further back, then selecting the last post in the thread. As soon as I hit the multi-quote option on that last post, the screen immediately went "go advanced," but only contained the quote a few posts back, and not the last one in the thread.