Undying love for my best friend...please read(long

[backpacker]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brain, I hope you feel better. With regard to Andy, I think your idea to cutoff contact for a period may have been too extreme, but the intent was good. You may want to introduce some structure to limit the inappropriate topics. Tell Andy that he has received every last bit of financial support from you and that you will not discuss money with him anymore. Let him know that you will simply hang up the phone whenever you brings up the topic, then do it. Do the same with talk about you moving there or how much he misses you. Those seem to be the three major topics that are causing problems. If you eliminate those, I think it will be a big step in transitioning your freindship into a one that is healthy for both of you. You should also limit the hours of calls to those that are reasonable so that you can have a good nights sleep.

As I noted before, when you begin therapy, I believe printing this thread and giving it to therapist would be very valuable in helping the therapist assist you.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

^ good stuff


Bri, if Andy feels that way about his gal, he's heading for a disastrous marriage. I know you don't want to interfere, but he needs someone to tell him to back off, slow down, and see if they can actually love each other.

 

[RicanDAB]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Vetteboi,

I have to agree with your observations and the fact that these could be contributing factors in Brian's declining health. That's all I am going to say as I sense that my own observations no longer have much value here.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

That's all I am going to say as I sense that my own observations no longer have much value here.

????

Why's that?

 

[RicanDAB]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Why's that?

It's my gut feeling on the whole thing, as sometimes I don't feel things I have said here have been useful. And I feel somewhat hurt seeing Brian suffer with this situation and there's a part of me that wishes Andy would get his f***ing act together ... and this is weird because I don't even know these guys! I think I might be getting too involved with this?

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

It's easy to get too involved with this. Brian is a sensitive guy, and that's easy to pick up on. That's why so many people have made this thread stay alive; it's also why I've taken a couple of vacations from it.

I get to wishing they'd both get their acts together, but yeah, Andy is worse off. IMO he needs to get away from his girl, away from Brian, and do something that would challenge him, like maybe backpack around the country for a year and learn to depend on himself.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Rican Im sorry you and some others feel like your advice is not listened to or taken, but trust me it is.

On to the fucking misery of the day.

Andrew called me a few times last night. We talked.

He calls me this morning, about 30 minutes ago...asking for a thousand more dollars. I asked him why he cant ask his other friends...why am I the one with this burden and responsibility...why me?? If I was with a guy and asking him and his girl for money, his girl would def put a stop to it.

I asked him, why doesnt he ask his father in law..since they are paying for the wedding...Im sure they would help. No, hes got his own wedding coming up and Andrew's wedding is being paid for by him. And her family would kill Andrew if they found out he is jobless. Andrew will be in NYC 2 weeks in the summer for both weddings. I really dont feel like going at all now. I asked him how hes getting two weeks off for his wedding in June??? What about work?..he said hes going to have to tell whatever job he gets that he needs off those two weeks.

I told him that I'm stuggling in every way. That I'm a broken man and Im numb and I'm down. He said he knows that I get like this when he asks for help and hes afraid to ask now..and then I go SO WHY DO YOU ASK???

He says I'm the only one that is there for him. I told him that this is what I mean when I say that I need a break..and why cant he understand that??

I told him my life over here is on hold because he cant get his act together..and that I cant make a move without wondering if hes gunna ask me for anymore help.

I told him he has broken me..and Im angry and depressed...and that this was supposed to be my day off because of all this stress...and now hes calling me adding to it.

As of right now I dont give a shit about his wedding...Im too depressed to even go...I think I've given them their ultimate wedding present anyway...bailing them out over and over and over.

Update you later...please dont flame me...I know. Im just as angry as you all.

P.S.-Rican...been reading your blog...I only wish to have the relationship that you have with your partner. Sounds like an awesome Christmas you had.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brian, Andy is jerking your chain. He's what they call co-dependet; he's latched his life and emotions onto you and is acting like a leech, sucking your strength away.

I've had some training in conflict resolution and relationship-therapy stuff, and IMHO Andy has got some serious problems. Hes built a structure that from the limited perspective provided in this thread plays you and his gal against each other in his mind and emotions, relying on one when the other isn't playing his game. If he knows what he's doing in the least, he needs a severe chastising; if he doesn't, he needs a good swift kick; either way, he needs some serious therapy.
I know it probably isn't practical, but my recommendation is that you two do some realtionship/group therapy together. You're both participating in a system he's built, a system that is destructive. He isn't willing to rely on himself, so he's feeding off you and his gal. I'd tell him the same thing, and also tell him to take at least a six-month "vacation" from both of you!

 

[hanshansen]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

I know it probably isn't practical, but my recommendation is that you two do some realtionship/group therapy together. You're both participating in a system he's built, a system that is destructive. He isn't willing to rely on himself, so he's feeding off you and his gal. I'd tell him the same thing, and also tell him to take at least a six-month "vacation" from both of you!

These are two of the potentially best suggestions I’ve read here … I’ve also got my doubts about their feasibility in terms of both logistics (maybe once Andy moves to NY?) and my impressions of Andy’s defensive mechanisms, but God, Brian, if you could arrange this, the dividends for him, and indirectly for you and his fiancée could be so major … if you think it's worth it that is ...

My impression really is that at this stage Andy's problems dwarf yours – he is in so many messes of his own making, and he won’t begin to climb out of them until he fronts up to them. He’s hiding his financial problems from his friends and family, he’s in denial about the consequences of not being happy with his gf … he needs help facing these issues, which must be terrifying, and thinking through their implications honestly. But that would put a massive burden on you, hence why I like the idea of joint therapy so much (where there is a third party taking the pressure off you but Andy needn’t feel that things are happening behind his back.) But I should stop, I’ve got too emotionally involved in this too, I’m not adding anything.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey all thanks for the advice...I fell asleep after I posted for a few hours.

Have not spoken to Andrew at all...I dont know what to say to him.

At times Andy would bring up group therapy..and I would also bring it up...if there is a chance that we might live near each other, its definitely an idea.

Can someone explain to me what some of you guys are saying when you say you are getting emotionally involved in whats going on?

Vegas

 

[hanshansen]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey all thanks for the advice...I fell asleep after I posted for a few hours.
Can someone explain to me what some of you guys are saying when you say you are getting emotionally involved in whats going on?

Vegas

Sure I can, in my case. Parts of your story just really strike a chord. As I tried to explain in an earlier post here, I can recognise important parts of Andy in myself. When I was younger in my own way I was irresponsible and undisciplined and leeched off people in the sense that (unconsciously, I believe) I exploited their kindness and weaknesses, avoiding people who wouldn't accomodate me. Getting to grips with that and getting my life back in order has been the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life, far, far harder than posting to this board about my sexuality. Reading your thread brought that all flooding back and also kept reminding me how very lucky I was: unlike Andy, I have a privileged background, lots of people who are interested in my welfare and who have instilled values in me which meant that I knew I would despise myself for the rest of my life if I didn't get my act together.

From that experience, I would feel awful if Andy ruined his one genuine friendship, got trapped in an unhappy marriage and became some kind of a bum in Las Vegas whom no-one respects. The second thing is that, like it or not, you have made me believe that before he moved to Vegas, Andy cared for you and supported you and took a genuine concern in your welfare, from a really unlikely background. In other words, that he is at some level a really nice guy who it is worth caring about. I have not had such a friend and envy you. Of course, none of that is of any use to Andy or anyone else now if he doesn't get his fucking act together.

So there you go. I can imagine that this makes you uncomfortable, given that none of us know you personally. I agree it's unhealthy, which is why I said 'too involved'. But it's one reason why this thread has grown as long as it has.

 

[hanshansen]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

The other thing is that you have been very frank with your emotions here, and you have gone through emotional extremes ... it is impossible to read 36 pages of that and just switch off afterwards. An interesting (and possibly really dubious) aspect of anonymous message boards, I guess. I've posted things on another thread here that I would never have told anyone 'in real life', and it just felt really good to vent. But I can see about 400 people unknown to me read what I wrote.

 

[RicanDAB]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Can someone explain to me what some of you guys are saying when you say you are getting emotionally involved in whats going on?

Bri,

To make a long story short ... I had a BF 7 years ago to whom I made several loans over the course of a year totaling about $4500. It was a time in my life when I was very comfortable with money and I had no problem lending -- especially when I was under the impression that I was in love. We broke up eventually and despite the breakup, he promised he would pay me back -- not surprisingly, he eventually moved and disconnected his number without notice. I perhaps saw $100 paid back to me. Oh, let's sweeten the pot a bit - this was a long distance relationship ... he lived in Chicago and I lived in NY ...and we only physically saw each other 3 times in that one-year relationship. Oh, I almost forgot - he was 2 years older than me.

You better believe that experience hardened me up REAL FAST! I am not the same Rican now that I was then. I have shared this story with only a couple of people out of sheer embarrassment but now it's here for all of JUB to read, and so what since my real identity is not known here ... and I secretly hope that a*****e in Chicago is a JUBer and actually reads this and realizes that what goes around comes around!

But I digress ...

So Bri, THIS is why I have gotten emotionally involved with your thread. I see so much of me in you and what you are going through ... it does not matter that Andy is just a friend but in fact the dynamic is the same because you have a love for him that is like being in a relationship. I just hate to see nice guys like you get financially limbo'ed in life because someone who can't get their act together has latched on and found you an easy financial source.

I know you promised you'd always be there for Andy, and I gather you're feeling as if denying him $ would be like going back on the promise. Like it or not, he is going to need tough love and if he is a true friend that you say he is, he will come running back to you to thank you for it. This experience will change YOU too, believe me - and I am sure that change has started.

BTW, thanks for reading my blogs .. which I mostly write for myself and I guess I never realized they are read by more than just the commenters. Good-hearted people like you will eventually find the happiness you are looking for, don't you worry. And you'll realize that after what you have been though you deserve it. I am a modest person, but after what I have been through these last several years - dammit I deserve to be happy now!

I think I have said enough for now ... I gotta eat!

And this is for you ...

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Wow guys, thanks. I really am about to cry. Your posts hit a chord with me as well.

Andy called...I told him I dont know what to do..I told him Im not doing the right thing by him with this money. I told him, much to his anger a little, that he was a big part of why I am depressed.

I told him we should have done the group therapy while we had achance. He told me, "friends dont do group therapy." Which is BS because he was the one that used to suggest it all the time..so I guess he thought it sounded too much like COUPLE therapy and he backed out of what I was saying...guess thats too GAY for him, whatever.

We spent most of the hour phone call silent. He' was extremely down. I was extremely down. I told him I was too. I asked him if he thought taking a break would be the right thing to do. He said no. I tend to say no also, but I dont know. We listened to each other just sigh and breahe for almost an hour. He said he needs to get food in his house tonight no matter what and he has to go into bill money.

I asked him what his girl thinks in her fucking head?? What he thinks in his fucking head...when they learn that the extra money I gave them is gone...Do they fucking think that Im automatically here for them?? I didn't curse to him or get angry with him.

Hansen..you are right in saying that Andy cares for me.He does. He was the only one there for me in my depression.

Selfishly, all I thought while he was talking to me is that I dont see how I can go to his wedding and how painful it will be.

I dont know. I suppose we will talk later.

Vegas

 

[hanshansen]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

On the one hand, it’s so clear and easy what needs to happen: Andy needs professional help, he needs to go back to New York, he needs to get a job … But how, I have no idea. I am as much at a loss as you are, Brian. My mind is too abstract, whereas this is all about psychology and mindsets.

You could try brutal logic (that really works well with someone like me): ‘Group therapy may be embarrassing and not something that friends do, but at the moment your life is fucked up, we are barely talking, neither of us knows how to get out of this. Do you think this is going to get better just by itself? Do you really want me to see some therapist by myself? We’ll definitely be talking about you.’

If you can't sell him on the group therapy, you could first try getting him to open up to you more, but that would mean that you would have to make a big effort to see things from his point of view and swallow how miserable you are about the wedding and the money for the moment. My guess is he is thinking he is just getting hostile vibes from you, whereas he wants advice on what he can do to disentangle himself. Maybe this is less of a sacrifice for you than it appears. After all, at some level, Andy (looking at things totally from his point of view) doesn’t want the things that are making you unhappy. He isn’t happy taking money from you (except in the sense of a heroin addict getting a fix), he is in a humiliating position. He isn’t happy with his girlfriend. If he can work through his problems, both of you will be happier. (Also, how important is this wedding really to how you feel? If you didn’t know it was scheduled for June, do you think you would be that much happier given all the other evidence that Andy is straight, the fact that he is pressing you for money etc.?) From this point of view, the question isn’t whether you should be selfish or not, but simply what the best way is of getting where you want yourself and Andy to end up in the long term (subject to any reality checks – i.e. if he is straight that’s just a fact). But take all this with a very big grain of salt – I probably am recommending that you should be a masochist here, and I don’t want to do that.

The third possibility is that you guys do end up ‘taking a break’. That would be a good thing for you, Brian, but I’m not sure if it would help Andy snap out of it. It could, but he would need to know that the point of the ‘break’ is for him to work things out and think about things, and have agreed that this is necessary for his own well-being. It wouldn’t do much good, I think, if he was just left by himself feeling abandoned.

Let me take a step back again. You know Andy, you have access to yourself, I only have your posts. In terms of process, I get the sense that you are not always totally sure of what you want when you are trying to sort things out with Andy, that makes it easier for him to be dominate how the conversation is going, to manipulate things to his advantage. For example, you asked him if you should ‘take a break’, and you yourself aren't certain. You need to know what you want, and this can’t just be a gut feeling (gut feelings are only certain for George Bush), you need to have reasons that have withstood objections, that give you confidence and that you can use to support your position. I also get the sense that you sometimes know exactly what to say to Andy after the fact (e.g. that he was the one who used to suggest group therapy all the time). You may want to use the thread to go through scenarios for some of these conversations. After all, this is what is so great about this forum, that you get a risk-free sounding board.

Anyway, this is not advice, these are some very tentative thoughts, even if they don't sound tentative … I’m dog tired and need to go to bed, and I also need to take a break from all this when work starts again next week, but of course I’ll be checking in from time to time.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

The important thing about group therapy (done properly) is that it deals with what's actually happening, not just what's in someone's head. It's the dynamics that make these things go, not just individuals clashing or bumping into each other. Brian, you and Andy have a system going, which involves you and him, but also his gal. Hard as it may be to grasp, this turmoil is serving a function for the two of you -- probably different functions for each of you. And the only dependable way to see what's really going on is for a trained observer to see the two of you interacting.
At the very least, if you decide to go to a therapist, asking Andy if you could tape your conversations so the therapist could hear (tell Andy, "What's going on with me") would be incredibly valuable. It would also be a starting point for getting him there, too.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Andy called on and off the whole day.

Eventually in or last call he asked why Im being so cold with him and why do I need to see a therapist...and how much he wishes I can open up more to him about whats going on.

I told him I have several things going on in my life that are getting me down, and please dont think that hes the cause if it all. But I did tell him he was part of it. I told him he was too controlling and manipulative at times.

He goes, "Controlling?? Bro Im NOT your boyfriend or your girlfiend...what the hell??"

I got angry and told him, "watch your fucking mouth with me...friends can be just as controlling as anyone else...."

He talked about how much his past bothers him and how much it bothers him when he thinks about how he used to use me. I told him when he asks for money that just brings up all those feelings in me again..

Anyway it all went downhill from there. I hung up with him. Called him back very angry saying I feel like I can punch a hole through the wall right now...I started crying.

Im realzing more than ever that I need to move on from with my feelings. And trust me I am really, really trying. I realize he will NEVER be there for me the way I want him to. So why is it so fucking hard to beat that into my skull...? Im reasonably intelligent. I see the writing on the wall. So why doesnt my brain just fuckin get it???

Vegas

 

[RicanDAB]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

He goes, "Controlling?? Bro Im NOT your boyfriend or your girlfiend...what the hell??"

How sick that he has equated controlling tendencies with a relationship .... is THIS what he thinks is supposed to exist in a romantic relationship?? That is sad.

Im realzing more than ever that I need to move on from with my feelings. And trust me I am really, really trying. I realize he will NEVER be there for me the way I want him to. So why is it so fucking hard to beat that into my skull...? Im reasonably intelligent. I see the writing on the wall. So why doesnt my brain just fuckin get it???

I KNOW you are trying Bri, and don't give up. I personally think you desperately need a breather from this friendship. I have had two breathers from two different friendships in my lifetime and believe it or not, that turned out to be intense blessings in disguise ... we are each so much better friends now than we were before the breathers. One lasted a year and the other 4 years. BY NO MEANS am I saying that this should happen for this long ... our breathers were precipitated by arguments and when we reunited (ironically, my mom's death and their desire to be there for me is what ended both silences) it was water under the bridge and we had all matured. You'd be surprised how much good a month would do in your case. I would think about it - I know you would miss talking to him - believe me I KNOW ... but I think others here would agree this would be a great way for each of you to prioritize yourselves for a change.

 

[dalton41]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Vegas, my heart absolutely goes out for you and I wish only the best for you. When I read your post, it sort of reminded me about my situation in some way. I post on another thread on here about my friend (co-worker)that I got very close to last year and we wound up going to NYC together for 3 days and this past November, to Florida. In between, we have gone to other places nearby. NYC was absolutely the best time we've had together and it wasn't so much about having sex, there was none. It was emotional. I've never seen him with a girl except that he told me he had a girlfriend at one time and he was not seeing one at the time. So I thought he might have been bi. I've kissed him on several occassions before our trip when going out for dinner and I've told him that he was the center of my life.

I faced the same problem as you, should I tell him how I feel? The last day in NY, I did let him know. At that time, he could have denied he was gay or bi, but he didn't. He told me that he really appreciated what I told him and that he was not ready for a relationship.

In June, I've noticed that a student worker in my department was making the moves on him and I was very jealous to the point that I've found every negative thing that I could on her. I suspected that she was a gold digging bitch and the only reason she wants him, so she could get "special" treatment from others. According to the student handbook, students are discouraged from engaging in a relationship with staff and faculty.

I can not tell you how much that hurts just seeing them together. Though the times we spent together was unforgettable, I was able to tell him about her online dating crap and how she is trying to find more men while at the same time going with him. He knows it. Even though she slacked off this past fall, she's right back at it again. I hate her for using him that way and he knows I resent her.

She's a thorn in my side and she is also a thorn for several others at work, including computer support services. I confided in a co-worker of mine about this situation of mine because of his experience of this woman and during the holidays he asked me about if my friend and I were an item. I could have said no and that would be dishonest and since it was never an issue in the past, I told him the truth. He understood, no problem.

I found the man I could spend the rest of my life with and I can be absolutely honest with him. He knows that and that is the greatest feeling in the world. But the bitch has to go.

And the bitch went. I told my friend about the latest activity and he also informed me that his dad suspected her of theft which did not help her case at all. So he called her to ask her about the past events and now they are history. She is totally pissed off and that might be putting it very mildly.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey...had a bad Friday night. Was strong all day. Broke down when Andy called. Was talking all strong with him and doing good. We hung up and hours later I broke down...worried, alone, empty, crying and called him.

He didnt really help. He was out in the casinos with his girl and while talking to me they drove to Target and went shopping together while he was playing therapist with me on the phone. It felt like he was just fitting me in. I panicked and hung up on him. He called back but the talk didnt go too well. He called me back a few hours later...I was groggy...so I was calm a little.

Today I forced myself to go out and buy some CD's and the new season of Will and Grace on DVD(another wild saturday night). At first it made me feel better...then reality sunk in.

Im trying to get along alone in this world. I have no one in my life. Im not crying pity...but sometimes it cant help but seem that way.

Im so alone right now...so fucking alone. Suicidal thoughts crept in yesterday again and once again now. Its just too painful sometimes.

bri