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Undying love for my best friend...please read(long

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Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brian,

Good update. You didn't let Andy's mood suck you into being down!

You are correct about the freaks on American Idol. I think they are giving us a little too much of what worked well in the past.
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

I slept heavy last night, only to wake up and find that Andy called my house phone 18 times and my cell phone 10 times...all in the span of less than an hour.

Andy is very, very down and wants to come back to NYC.

According to him, the wedding is off as far as June goes.

Vegas
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brian,
I'm new to this whole forum thing, I'm a few months younger than you (I'm headed for 30 in a few months) and experiencing many of the same emotions you are, the difference being I'm not out to anyone. This thread has fascinated me ever since I stumbled onto JUB, and I've been following it since it's creation. I'm sitting here drunk at my computer after one of the shittiest weeks I've had in a while, and I just felt the need to say something regarding your situation.
First off, you're not the only one in the situation you're in. I have a friend that I've spent the past year or so pining for. My heart and gut instincts that tell me he's gay, but I'm still waiting to figure out what's going on. I know I'll be out eventually, but for now this is where I am and where I need to be. As a result, testing my theory becomes extremely difficult from inside the closet. This is actually the first time I've even admitted being gay to anyone but myself and God, even if it is anonymously.
I'm headed for 30 like I said, and I'm also a single virgin who's very much overweight. I haven't exactly made myself accessible or desirable to either sex, so I've spent a lot of time alone even though I still live with family as I get myself a PhD. I'm trying to fix things health-wise and finance-wise so I can get out on my own and start living my life as I want to, but for now, this is my situation. I know the loneliness you're feeling and it sucks. I just wanted you to know you're not really alone. Hang in there, and don't ever give in to the despair that you're feeling. I've done a lot of shit to damage myself over the years, but suicide is never an option. I've seen your pictures when they were up, and I'd kill to look like you, or even be with someone like you. Things always have a way of working themselves out and you'll find someone to love and who loves you.
As far as your friend is concerned, I'll go out on a limb and preface my opinion by saying that you need to do what your heart tells you to do. It's easy to give anonymous advice when it's not you, but when you're living the situation, you have to respond in the best way for you.
Having said that, I applaud your attempt to distance yourself from Andy. No one who loves you unconditionally would put you in a situation that harms your well being. If he truly loved you, he'd drop the innuendo and not want to ever burden you with his financial problems. If he truly loved you, he'd at least fight when you sent him money, and absolutely pay you back. I know nothing about your relationship save what you've spent all this time posting, but I do know that love doesn't take without giving back, and I think he's getting the better end of the deal. From what you're posting, all you get is pain, suicidal thoughts, long hours on the phone, and sleepless nights. He gets comfort, unconditional love, and money. You need to seriously evaluate the situation and decide what's really going on.
Love should never be a burden. It's work, for sure, but it shouldn't be a hardship for you. You're worth so much more than you think you are, take it from someone who's a master at the self-pity game. I'm curious how close Andy would be to you when the money stops. By confessing your love to him, you've given him a power over you that he's exploiting. I truly believe that he knows you well enough to play you. You said your friendship was based on deception, and I believe that's never changed. He's just learned to be more subtle and play you better. If you were brothers, you would have been his first choice for best man. If i had a brother, I'd never deny him that honor, and the same goes for my best friend.
You're ultimately going to do what you need to do, and that's your right, since only you know what your heart says. I hope you don't get hurt, and I hope you know you're not the only one who's out there looking for love. I pray for the strength to finally be brave enough to just be gay. You'll have to pardon my rant, being hopped up on SoCo does this to me sometimes, but I truly wish you the best in your relationship with Andy and your love life. Everything's going to be ok, it just takes patience sometimes. At least that's what I'm telling myself. Take care.
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

nihilis said:
I'm curious how close Andy would be to you when the money stops. By confessing your love to him, you've given him a power over you that he's exploiting. I truly believe that he knows you well enough to play you. You said your friendship was based on deception, and I believe that's never changed. He's just learned to be more subtle and play you better. If you were brothers, you would have been his first choice for best man. If i had a brother, I'd never deny him that honor, and the same goes for my best friend.
Click to expand...

Wow ... this was oh so well said nihilis ... :=D:
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hilis thanks for that post......seems like we are in just about the same boat.

I just want to make it clear to everyone here that even though on some small level I will always love Andy, it is MUCH MUCH less now..a lot less.

Andy called me all night...he is down and had several anxiety attacks.

He keeps repeating over "If I cant turn to you..how can I get out of this..who will help me?"

I answer with support for him but pretty much leave him with a "things will change for the better soon bro"

Meanwhile, I dont know. I dont want to give him money and have been good about not caving in.

But I need to know this...what do I do when Feb 1st comes and his rent is due..and he cant pay it?? How do those talks go on the phone? Knowing that Im not helping him and noone else is?? How do I handle those talks???

Please dont tell me, dont cave in and help him. I got that. I'm not helping him. BUT, you have to admit, if you are best friends with someone and they talk to you all the time and they are going through this...what would you do?

Bri
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

LostVegas said:
...what do I do when Feb 1st comes and his rent is due..and he cant pay it?? How do those talks go on the phone? Knowing that Im not helping him and noone else is?? How do I handle those talks???

...what would you do?

Bri
Click to expand...

Brian ... :wave:

The question shouldn't be what do YOU do, but, rather, what are THEY going to do? It is truly THEIR responsibility! THEY need to come up with a solution. It is THEIR problem! THEY are the ones that have gotten themselves into this situation. And, perhaps becoming desparate, will get THEM to finally "step up" to having to take care of themselves! So ... YOU shouldn't DO anything!

I know ... not easy! But it really is the best possible way to Help them in the long run. THEY need to LEARN this Lesson!! It's called "Tough" Love because it's so difficult for all involved. But ... something that is necessary to endure, and eventually far more beneficial, for Everyone.

I've been there! I've had to do this! I, too, had to withhold further financial support from a long-time, good, friend. But ... despite some rough spots for him, it did turn out for the best! He has even Thanked! me since then, for helping him, by NOT helping him anymore, at that time. He has said it changed his life for the better. He is doing O.K. now!

He still owes me money, though. I'm not concerned about that. He has pledged to pay it back. It's up to him, now. (We'll see ... ) But, more importantly, we are a bit closer, having gone through that together.

So ... how did I do that? I had to simply tell him that "that well had run dry"! I just didn't have the resources to "help" anymore. I WISH I could, as I had before. But, right then, it just wasn't possible.

I told him it was time to stop FEELING about his situation, and start objectively THINKING about it. What could HE possibly do to get through it? I told him to write down every possible option he could think of ... including the ones he didn't want to think about. I told him he may have to do things that he didn't WANT to do, but HAD to do. I told him it was a temporary situation, that things would get better, but that HE had to take his own steps to get through it.

I told him that once he had his list down, I'd go over it with him. We'd look at ALL his options, together, and highlight what was Practical vs. what was merely Desirable. And maybe we'd even be able to add some options he hadn't thought of himself. TOGETHER we would come up with a course of action. Eventhough I couldn't help with money, anymore, I could still be there for him, and do my best to help him find a way through. It would involve some tough decisions, but he would not be alone getting through them! It was something that HE had to do, but he wouldn't be doing it all by himself!

We went over his available resources. We discussed job alternatives. He ended up moving to a cheaper place, selling some things he didn't really NEED, trading down to more affordable transportation, and cutting out all expenses that were "optional" (cable, entertainment, ordering out food, etc., etc.) We "dialed down" his life style to the absolute basics. And though some of it seemed "painful" at the time, none of those actions were actually going to "hurt" him. We did keep him "on line" though. He needed the access to look for a better job. And, eventually, it all Worked!!! ..|

Now it's time for Andy, and "Girl", to face up to their own Reality. You can help them, just not with money! But THEY have to be willing to do it!

Brian, Buddy, I am sincerely wishing YOU, and Them, ALL the Very Best through this! It IS do-able!! (group)

And ... of course ... no matter what ...

Keep smilin'!! :kiss: (*8*)
Chaz ;)
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

LostVegas said:
He keeps repeating over "If I cant turn to you..how can I get out of this..who will help me?"

I answer with support for him but pretty much leave him with a "things will change for the better soon bro"

...

But I need to know this...what do I do when Feb 1st comes and his rent is due..and he cant pay it?? How do those talks go on the phone? Knowing that Im not helping him and noone else is?? How do I handle those talks???

Please dont tell me, dont cave in and help him. I got that. I'm not helping him. BUT, you have to admit, if you are best friends with someone and they talk to you all the time and they are going through this...what would you do?
Click to expand...


Oh Lord, here goes Rican again ... Brian, I know you're getting sick of my posts but sometimes I just feel like I cannot shut up when you say certain things ... in some small way I want to help you realize that YOU are not responsible for what's happening in Andy's life and that you cannot let what he says or does (or does not) dictate how you have to respond - financially or otherwise.

I don't know if you recall my story about how I lent an ex of mine so much money and I never got paid back. Well, the situation you are in now is where I also have been ... if I recall he was almost in reposession of his car. I reached my breaking point with him and I told him that I could not help him out with any more money, and I had bailed him out on several occasions including rent that he was unable to pay TWICE and two other times also for the car payments. I believe when I stopped the loans he says he understood but I can tell he was brooding about it seriously. I stopped hearing from him slowly after that .. and of course we eventually broke up. I am not sure if his car was eventually repossessed (like I care) ... but my point is that he NEVER made any effort to improve his situation (to get a better job, to get a second job .. whatever it took to stop coming to me for money). BTW, he TOO was too proud to go to family for help.

I am not going to lie: I will personally be disappointed (as others I am sure) to hear that you have once again bailed Andy out with money. If he is having trouble with the rent for Feb., what's going to happen in March, April and so on? What efforts is he (and that fiancee of his) making to find a job or a better job to improve financially? One little interview or job contact? He should be out there scouring the town daily to find anything to do, not hanging out in restaurants and living it up ... he's NOT in a position to be picky about jobs. What about employment agencies? Vetteboi's suggestion about Labor Ready was good ... not sure if that is available in Las Vegas but certainly they have similar resources. I'm having a little trouble digesting the fact that in a city like Las Vegas, Andy cannot find a job that pays something. Even if it means scrubbing toilets at the Venetian, it's a job! Is it that he's too proud to do something like that? I dunno.

Look, I know you care about Andy and all, but this is not what your friendship should be about .. and apparently finances have become a thorn and a focal point in the emotions. What you should be doing with him is encouraging him to find work, giving him ideas and places to go to find work. "Teach him how to fish" in other words. Your money is YOUR money and slowly he's making it HIS money and that just has to stop. A friend would not allow this situation to comtinue.

What was annoying me to no end in my situation was the fact that my ex was not making any efforts to change his situation ... Andy is doing a lot of whining and not doing a lot of searching, because he knows you're a safe backup ... he's sitting out there in Las Vegas I am sure lounging because in 10 days he knows the dire situation will cause you to pity him again and come through. How do I know he's lounging? He's calling you xx times a day and he's not exactly telling you he's all over the place looking for work.

I've been where you've been and if I were in your shoes right now .. I would make it clear NOW (Jan 20) that I will not be forthcoming with any money for his rent, that he should know NOW that it's just not an option he should count on. This has to springboard him into action somehow to do something else.

it's sad to think though that I just sat here typing this all and it was all I am sure for my health .. if anything I do feel better about venting it. But Brian, you know what you have to do ... and you have no idea how many of us here are waiting to embrace you and comfort you when you go through the tough love process. Tough love IS the right thing, I can promise you that!

(*8*)

P.S. I forgot to answer your question about how you should handle his calls after Feb 1 if you do nothing? Well, if he resents you and stops calling you, then you know what this was all about. If he continues to call you after that, he's clearly seeking your moral support and you be right there and give it to him. Give him the tools to succeed and he'll thank you later.
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Rican, I appreciate all you said but I have to reiterate...I am NOT giving money to Andy.

HOWEVER, when the time comes that he needs to pay rent...what do I say to him when he mentions what is going on??? How do I talk to him, NOT help him out, but at the same time be there for him.

So let me say this again, I will not be giving him money.

I just will feel bad. We are, after all, whether people on this thread like to see it or not, the best of friends and close brothers...so I will be honest, its fucking painful seeing him go through this.

Bri
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

LostVegas said:
HOWEVER, when the time comes that he needs to pay rent...what do I say to him when he mentions what is going on??? How do I talk to him, NOT help him out, but at the same time be there for him.
Click to expand...

Ok, you're clear on not giving him any money ...

What do you say you ask? You sympathize with him, listen to him brood if you have to and you help him come up with ways to get himself back on his feet and out of the situation that he's now in. That CAN be done without money being involved. Use your time on the phone constructively!

I am not saying that this is not painful - it hurts to see someone you love go through hard times. I think you feel you have some high level of moral responsibility with him as your "brother" ... the answer is that you can only do so much, especially from across the miles. And you my friend have done more than enough to date, but you feel you need to be there even more .. and the only way you can do this is (1) be the shoulder to cry on and (2) help him find ways to get back on his feet. This is all you can do.
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Let me ask you a question Brian, does his asking for money hurt you? Does it piss you off? Does it completely upset your life? I'd venture a guess that yes is the answer to all three questions in some form. When friends cross a line, they need to know it. You have done more than your share to help this kid out, and he is living his life the way he wants because of your generosity gone overboard. He's never going to know what life is about until you say no to him.
You are not obligated to support anyone like you support him. There are two people in that apartment, there should be two incomes. You're not helping out a friend who's in need, you're enabling two lazy leeches to keep on being selfish (I blame his girlfriend just as much, shame on her). When he calls you crying and you tell him no and that's too bad and you financially can't do it anymore, you're going to really see how strong your friendship is. If he flies into a range or cuts you off, then you'll finally be able to realize what's at the root of your relationship, and it's certainly not love in that case. It's hard to watch the people we love suffer, but people need to take personal responsibility for their own actions, and it's time Andy grew up and realized that. Andy's rent is no more your problem than my sister's rent is mine. It would suck if they were kicked out, but they were the ones who put themselves in that situation.
I just wanted to say, regarding this thread, that I don't know if your intentions are to end it, but I have to say it'd be a shame if you did. You are progressing, and you're essentially verbalizing a battle online that many of us wage in our heads every day with the people that we love. It takes time to change and to heal, and anyone judging you can go find something else to read. I commend your maturing over the past year and sincerely hope you keep this up. It's been an inspiration, to me anyway.
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

LostVegas said:
He keeps repeating over "If I cant turn to you..how can I get out of this..who will help me?"
Click to expand...

I would have responded "You! You're an adult and you need to rely on yourself and stop making this my problem. I'm not giving you another dime and I don't want to hear another word about it."

When I was much younger I had a roommate who was irresponsible. I let him get away with crap all the time because I wanted him (he was straight, but when drunk would do very gay things). When rent was due one month he hadn't come in a few days, so I called him at work (before cell phones). I found out that he had been fired two weeks earlier. When I caught up to him, he said I should have known that he was irresponsible when I agreed to be his roommate. I finally blew up at him. I told him that he is 21 and not a little kid. He needs to start acting like an adult and if he can't pay the rent he needs to move out. That moment totally changed his life. He moved in with his mother and I honestly didn't care if I saw again. Something very interesting happened; every Friday he brought by money to pay me back what he owed. His maturity level seemed to change overnight. My point is, when I stopped enabling him, he grew up.

I know you keep saying that you are not going to give Andy any money and seem a little upset that posters don't believe you. You need to understand that you have said that time and time again, then given Andy money. Frankly all signs are pointing to you giving him money again. Until you understand that giving him money is really hurting him, you will continue to give the money. Honestly I keep pushing you to see a therapist so that you can learn to deal with Andy in a healthy way. Things are not going to get better unless you get some help.

With regard to February's rent, if they can't pay it, then they may just need to move to a place they can afford. They have already paid "last month's rent", so they will have until March to move. When you gave him the money last month you didn't do anything to help them. At best you just extended their problem a bit, but the reality is that you actually made the problem worse. They were not committed to a lease a month ago, now they are (which they may need to break). Had it not been for you, they would already be living in a place they could afford. You just added another month's of stress to all three of your lives. I know you thought you were doing the right thing and hopefully now you will understand that your judgment with issues regarding Andy is very impaired. There's an old saying, give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day. Teach the man to fish and you will feed him for a lifetime. You need to stop giving him fish so that he will learn to fish.

My last point of the day, Vegas is full of job opportunities. If Andy wanted to work, he would be working. If Andy can't pay his bills, that's Andy's fault. Don't let him guilt you into giving him another hand out.

I'm sorry to be so hard on you with this post, but it really looks like you are on the slippy slop again.
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

LostVegas said:
Rican, I appreciate all you said but I have to reiterate...I am NOT giving money to Andy.

HOWEVER, when the time comes that he needs to pay rent...what do I say to him when he mentions what is going on??? How do I talk to him, NOT help him out, but at the same time be there for him.

So let me say this again, I will not be giving him money.

I just will feel bad. We are, after all, whether people on this thread like to see it or not, the best of friends and close brothers...so I will be honest, its fucking painful seeing him go through this.

Bri
Click to expand...

Bri ... did you not read my post just above Rican's?? :confused:
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Kyanimal said:
Bri ... did you not read my post just above Rican's?? :confused:
Click to expand...

I've got nothing to add to all the above advice, it's all really good. Kyanimal is totally right - help him by helping him (making him) think through the options and alternatives rationally with you and support him on following through. That's something he's not able to do on his own, he really needs you for this. Do your best to start doing this before Feb 1, letting him know totally unambiguously now that any money won't be forthcoming. Unfortunately, as others have said, your protestations in that respect aren't that credible (sorry, that's just how it is because of historical patterns), so it could be that he'll only start listening to you once Feb 1 hits. But if Feb 1 arrives with him unprepared you'll know you have done your best. And as others have said, if he reacts really badly, at least you'll know you're dealing with an ungrateful selfish bastard and will have closure.
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Well contrary to popular belief I still have not helped him out with the money..and Andrew is not a selfish bastard(who isnt from time to time anyway?). ;)

Anyway, he has been calling all week. He asked his dad and his childhood friend for help with money..they all said no. I have been supportive of him as much as I can when I talk to him.

I was renting videos the other day when I got a call from Marcus, a student of mine that grew close to me last year. It was like a father/son type of bond.
He had a lot of issues and for the whole first half of the year and he never talked to me. The one day he opened up and we grew very close.

I saw him last in October and he would call m here and there to update me on his situation and high school and pretty much just to say hello.

I wish you all could meet Marcus. He is one of those "tough" type kids on the outisde but inside he is very caring.

He has no father figure and has a nice mom. In some ways I wish he didnt have anyone because I would adopt him in a second. I would spend everyday reminding him of how great and capable and intelligent he is.

So when he called he had said he had off from high school this week(Regents week) and that he was coming to msee me Tuesday.

Well imagine my surprise when Marcus was waiting for me after school today with a huge hug and smile.

He told me how much he missed me and the school and all the memories he had there. He said the whole class misses me and they all want to have a reunion..

He told me he was having trouble in school and that he was saving for a car. I asked him if he was doing the right thing and staying clear of touble and he said he was.

When some kids came by he went into THUG mode, but when they passed he talked very intelligent to me. I told him, like I always do, that I am here for him anytime and he knows where to find me.

It was really good seeing him today and it served as a reminder of just how much I miss my class from last year. I hope they are all doing good and are healthy.

I really miss them all that it hurts sometimes. That's probably the one sucky thing about teaching...they all have to grow up and leave at some point :cry:

Bri
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

LostVegas said:
Well contrary to popular belief I still have not helped him out with the money..and Andrew is not a selfish bastard(who isnt from time to time anyway?). ;)
Click to expand...

Sorry Brian, I regretted that after I had posted it. ('If Andrew is a selfish bastard, at least you'll know'?) In any case, I hope he will start earning back your trust.

That must have been a really special class. I was lucky enough to be part of one like that in the last year of this country's equivalent of grade school. We were age twelve. The teacher was basically an ex-hippie. She had all these loopy new-age idealistic notions about teaching and life in general. At first all the kids thought she was ridiculous. But she really believed in what she said and did, she was totally unselfconscious about it and we all felt she cared about us individually. By the second half of the year, we all loved her and what's more, this warm hippyish vibe had spread through the entire class. We were never this nice to each other before or since. I remember she managed to get this proto-jock in our class to say that being gay is cool. I'm sure he totally believed that when he said it.

Hope you had a good time with Latoya and her friends - unless that's next weekend!
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey all, small update.

I have been strong with the money

Andy has asked anyone and everyone and has stopped asking me

I feel very depressed today as to where my life is

Im sick of fake ass gay guys

Im worried about Andrew

Im sick of the lack of money and life I have

Im just depressed where my life is in general

The depression came quick and Im hoping it leaves just as quick

Hope all is well with you

Brian
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Well, I have been pretty good with not offering him money and giving it to him.

Today Andy called and told me that he never considered Vegas a home because I was not with him, and that even his girl broke down crying yesterday asking if "Brian can help us out"

I was surprised to learn that no, they didnt want help with the rent, that they want me to help them out with a loan that they will both definitely pay back

They want to come back to NYC, and move either to Long Island or New Jersey

I have been in a dark abyss lately of thoughts

Been feeling really bad, and none of this pertains to Andrew or anything

Just unhappy with where my life is, where I am at, how much money I have and of course being alone.

So I think with all this going on, I am going to officially end posting to this thread

I thank EVERYONE here for their contributions and and for the advice and personal stories offered, they have helped me and Im sure many others

I wish you all health, luck and happiness this year

I will still be registered in JUB but probably will not contribute much

ONE LOVE, BRIAN (*8*)

PS-Thanks for all the good folks at JUB for letting me share my story

PS-2 You can still drop me mail on here, or on AOL at TenTwentyTwo76@aol
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brian,

I certainly hope and pray that you find the peace and happiness you deserve. It probably is a good time for you to move on. This too will be my final post on this thread.

Rican (*8*)
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brian, I hope things will work themselves out and you will find greater happiness in the future. You have my very best wishes, and you'll continue to be in my thoughts.
 
Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brian ...

The Light in JUB's window shall always be on for You! Looking to hear more from you, if not in this thread, at least, perhaps, in others!

Wishing YOU All the Very Best! And as you move forward, do not forget that we are also walking along, just out of sight, over your shoulder! (group)

And ... of course ... no matter what ...

Keep smilin'!! :kiss: (*8*)
Chaz ;)
 
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